# James Randi calls time on the $1 million dollar prize ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263 "2008-01-04T12:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/101 "2008-01-05T01:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Stipulating that for the sake of the argument, it hardly constitutes the JREF being “run by people that are openly hostile to the idea of real psychics,” who “get to dicker with you endlessly about what constitutes passing the test.” Nor does it excuse anyone who \*currently \*claims psychic ability, if the one guy who was a dick is gone. [/QUOTE] I agree, but it may be where some people gained the impression, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/102 "2008-01-05T01:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] I misspoke. They are hostile to people who say they are psychics. They guy puts out a magazine, that among other things, exposes psychics as frauds how can you not see that as hostile. Perhaps I don’t understand the challenge but I thought that the Randi folk got to choose the rules for the tests. They work with the person taking the challenge but ultimately they are the ones who get to decide things. I think that something like what Randi wants to do is what it would take to convince skeptics (and myself) that psychics are real. I just see that people like Sylvia Browne have an huge amount to lose and not a whole lot to gain by taking Randi test. She already has a lot of people convinced that she is the real deal it looks like she has a good lifestyle I see she is advertising a psychic experience cruise. I have been on cruises with featured guest speakers that looks like a good gig for the speaker. [/QUOTE] What magazine are you talking about? As for the rest, [here are the rules for the Challenge.](http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/40/32/) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/103 "2008-01-05T01:28:33Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] Perhaps I don’t understand the challenge but I thought that the Randi folk got to choose the rules for the tests. They work with the person taking the challenge but ultimately they are the ones who get to decide things. [/QUOTE] [Here](http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/40/32/) are the rules. The pertinent part : _Applicant will declare agreement by signing this form where indicated before a notary public and returning the form to the James Randi Educational Foundation. Applicant must state clearly what is being claimed as the special ability upon which they wish to be tested, and test protocols must be agreed upon by both parties before any testing will take place. All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, so that no judging or voting process is required. We do not design the protocol independently of the applicant, who must provide clear guidelines so that the test(s) may be properly designed and carried out._ Applicant states what will happen, and both parties agree in advance what constitutes a pass. > [@](#): > > I think that something like what Randi wants to do is what it would take to convince skeptics (and myself) that psychics are real. I just see that people like Sylvia Browne have an huge amount to lose and not a whole lot to gain by taking Randi test. She already has a lot of people convinced that she is the real deal it looks like she has a good lifestyle I see she is advertising a psychic experience cruise. I have been on cruises with featured guest speakers that looks like a good gig for the speaker. I read an account of one such cruise, written by a journalist. He was not impressed. I’ll see if I can find it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/104 "2008-01-05T01:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] I misspoke. They are hostile to people who say they are psychics. They guy puts out a magazine, that among other things, exposes psychics as frauds how can you not see that as hostile. Perhaps I don’t understand the challenge but I thought that the Randi folk got to choose the rules for the tests. They work with the person taking the challenge but ultimately they are the ones who get to decide things. [/QUOTE] Would a magazine exposing quack doctors be considered hostile to doctors, or only to quack ones. That the set of psychics seem to be equivalent to the set of psychic frauds is not his fault. Some psychics may be unintentionally fraudulent, doing cold readings but convinced they’ve got something. As for the rules, don’t you think it is reasonable to force the claimant to state exactly what they’re going to do, to see if the claimed result is significant? If I claim I can guess suits of a deck of cards correctly 25% of the time, that’s not much of a claim. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/105 "2008-01-05T01:48:57Z")
The protocol is what I am taking about. Randi and his people have control over it. The psychics options if they don’t like it are to try and convince Randi to change it or not go through with the test. I think we are getting bogged down. My point is that psychics with a following don’t really have a lot to gain by submitting to Randi’s test. Not that Randi’s tests or something like it are a good way to showing psychic abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/106 "2008-01-05T01:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] The protocol is what I am taking about. Randi and his people have control over it. The psychics options if they don’t like it are to try and convince Randi to change it or not go through with the test. [/QUOTE] That’s not true. They both have control. Are you suggesting that the JREF would deliberately demand an impossible protocol if they suspected a true psychic were on the scene? They psychic is free to suggest a protocol. All the JREF is looking for is one that yields unambiguous results, and is free from trickery. Do you have any examples of such a protocol being rejected? > [@](#): > > Not that Randi’s tests or something like it are a good way to showing psychic abilities. Really? I think they would be ideal. If a gang of hostile skeptics admit you have psychic powers, you’ve pretty much sealed the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/107 "2008-01-05T01:55:21Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] The protocol is what I am taking about. Randi and his people have control over it. The psychics options if they don’t like it are to try and convince Randi to change it or not go through with the test. I think we are getting bogged down. My point is that psychics with a following don’t really have a lot to gain by submitting to Randi’s test. Not that Randi’s tests or something like it are a good way to showing psychic abilities. [/QUOTE] First, it’s “supposed psychics”, _not_ “psychics”. Second, what do you think _would_ be a good way to show real psychic abilities? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/108 "2008-01-05T02:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] First, it’s “supposed psychics”, _not_ “psychics”. Second, what do you think _would_ be a good way to show real psychic abilities? [/QUOTE] > **[Noreen Renier - Psychic Detective](https://www.noreenrenier.com/)** > > Noreen Renier is a well known psychic detective working over 380 unsolved cases with city, county and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. Well, let’s see, In 1981, when Psychic Investigator Noreen Renier first lectured at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, her work with police detectives was considered controversial. Now, she is a well-known psychic detective who has worked on over 500 unsolved cases with city, county, and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. She has a unique understanding of both the police and the paranormal. > [@](#): > > …the Bureau has used Renier strictly in an academic setting, to expand the thinking of police officers. We have, however, given her name to law enforcement people who want to try a psychic. And some of them have said she’s solved cases." > — F.B.I. Special Agent Robert Ressler, New York Post, June 4, 1988 > > “Noreen’s incredible insight helped close our case by providing the macabre details of our victim’s murder which, when presented to our suspect, caused him to negotiate a confession. She also identified two other accomplices to the crime.” > - Joe Uribe (Montana DCI Agent - Retired) > > You definitely opened many eyes to the potential investigative tool of the psychic. Obviously, many a doubting Thomas had to revise his ideas concerning this somewhat esoteric area." > — Daniel Grinnan. Jr. Bureau of Forensic Science Commonwealth of Virginia > > “I asked Noreen if she would come and address the Illinois Coroner’s and Medical Examiner’s Association at their Spring meeting. We had worked with Noreen on a homicide case in our county and she was a great help to us. I felt it was important to let members of the Association know what a valuable tool a Psychic may be in working those troubling cases. She was both informative and entertaining.” > > ``` > — Marlene A. Lantz, Coroner McHenry County. 2007 > > ``` > > “Noreen never could have known this stuff beforehand and she was so accurate it was chilling.” > — Retired Lt. Commander. R. Krolak, The Times Union, February 11, 1992 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/109 "2008-01-05T02:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] > **[Noreen Renier - Psychic Detective](https://www.noreenrenier.com/)** > > Noreen Renier is a well known psychic detective working over 380 unsolved cases with city, county and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. Well, let’s see, In 1981, when Psychic Investigator Noreen Renier first lectured at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, her work with police detectives was considered controversial. Now, she is a well-known psychic detective who has worked on over 500 unsolved cases with city, county, and state Law Enforcement Agencies in 38 states and 6 foreign countries. [/QUOTE] You’d think if she was any good one or two of those five hundred would have been solved. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/110 "2008-01-05T02:14:37Z")
As for psychic testing, you set up a fair and equal test and the psychics will come. Oh, there is no such thing as psychic power, being psychic is a gift, the abiliity to read, see, and hear subtle spiritual energies. Some are better than others, but nothing is perfect. Science by choice ignores the existence of anything it can’t detect in some way. It is a materialistic belief system. It is far behind in the knowledge of the real world. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/111 "2008-01-05T02:16:45Z")
[QUOTE=bbs2k] I’m a psychic so I knew this was going to happen. Also… 2011, Detroit Lions win the Superbowl, _watch_. [/QUOTE] OK now you have gone to far. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/112 "2008-01-05T02:17:01Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] The protocol is what I am taking about. Randi and his people have control over it. The psychics options if they don’t like it are to try and convince Randi to change it or not go through with the test. [/quote] That doesn’t make any sense. No one’s forcing either side to go through with a test, either Randi or the psychic could presumably withdraw if they dislike the terms, the test taker has just as much control as Randi does. And it’s not like Randi has to bend over backwords to create a test thats unfair for him to make one that he will be certain an applicant will fail. Whether you believe in paranormal abilities or not, I don’t think there’s any question Randi doesn’t believe in them. So all he has to do to make a test that he’s sure a psychic will fail is to make one a normal person would fail. And if the psychic really thinks they have powers, all they need to do is agree to a test a normal person would fail but that thier powers will allow them to pass. It doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to find a mutually satisfactory proceedure for a test then. > [@](#): > > I think we are getting bogged down. My point is that psychics with a following don’t really have a lot to gain by submitting to Randi’s test. Not that Randi’s tests or something like it are a good way to showing psychic abilities. Except that a lot of psychics do apparently want people to believe in their powers. If they really do want to convince people, passing Randi’s test would be a good way to do it, and with a million bucks extra to boot. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/113 "2008-01-05T02:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] You’d think if she was any good one or two of those five hundred would have been solved. [/QUOTE] She has been featured on the TV show “Psychic Detectives” where many of her solved cases are shown. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/114 "2008-01-05T02:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Science by choice ignores the existence of anything it can’t detect in some way. [/QUOTE] If it cannot be detected how are we supposed to KNOW it isn’t a bunch of hooey you and your friends made up? Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Pass. The world is too full of liars and morons and lunatics for me to accept preposterous claims. Nothing personal. When come back bring proof. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/115 "2008-01-05T02:19:33Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] As for psychic testing, you set up a fair and equal test and the psychics will come. [/quote] > [@](#): > > Science by choice ignores the existence of anything it can’t detect in some way. It is a materialistic belief system. It is far behind in the knowledge of the real world. These two statements seem contradictory. If a fair and equal test is possible, then science should be able to preform such a test. But then psychic powers are detectable, despite the fact that “Science by choice ignores the existence of anything it can’t detect” ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/116 "2008-01-05T02:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] She has been featured on the TV show “Psychic Detectives” where many of her solved cases are shown. [/QUOTE] Of course no TV show has ever pandered to idiots before… ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/117 "2008-01-05T02:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] These two statements seem contradictory. If a fair and equal test is possible, then science should be able to preform such a test. But then psychic powers are detectable, despite the fact that “Science by choice ignores the existence of anything it can’t detect” [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t matter no skeptic is going to change their mind, they wouldn’t be a skeptic if they did. Actually nothing in this world matters save how you treat others. Come on in, step up to take the psychic test. See just how good you really are. > **[Psychic Test](https://aleroy.com/arcade/psytest.htm)** > > Psychic Test. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/118 "2008-01-05T02:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I wouldn’t matter no skeptic is going to change their mind, they wouldn’t be a skeptic if they did. Actually nothing in this world matters save how you treat others. Come on in, step up to take the psychic test. See just how good you really are. > **[Psychic Test](https://aleroy.com/arcade/psytest.htm)** > > Psychic Test. [/QUOTE] I so get tired of saying this, but here I go once again-would you mind providing a cite that confirms a particular psychic’s ability _that is NOT the psychic’s own website_? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/119 "2008-01-05T02:37:01Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I wouldn’t matter no skeptic is going to change their mind, they wouldn’t be a skeptic if they did. Actually nothing in this world matters save how you treat others. Come on in, step up to take the psychic test. See just how good you really are. > **[Psychic Test](https://aleroy.com/arcade/psytest.htm)** > > Psychic Test. [/QUOTE] This is your site, right? I’m impressed by your exhaustive research, piling through scientific reports, eyewitness testimony and the like, in order to gain your extremely rigourous and valid Ze **n** er cards test. Normally I might make some joke about how a misreading on one word in Ze **n** er card testing, perhaps even a word that comes up very often in Ze **n** er card testing (those tools named after the great Karl Ze **n** er), might suggest a rush job in doing such research - but alas, I cannot in this case (of Ze **n** er card research), as you have made no such simple mistakes. Your instructions page (on the Ze **n** er cards test) says that the formula used is the same formula used in past Ze **n** er tests. I’d like to know what that formula is, please, and which tests it is taken from. I’d also like you to talk through the formula, explaining why it is that it is used and why each variable is as it is. For my education, of course, and I am sure since this is on your own site you understand exactly how your psychic test works. After all, to admit to having something on your site you do not understand, and the willingnes to put something on your site you know you do not understand, would make your entire site (and indeed your own integrity in this matter) into question. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263/120 "2008-01-05T02:37:23Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I wouldn’t matter no skeptic is going to change their mind, they wouldn’t be a skeptic if they did. Actually nothing in this world matters save how you treat others. Come on in, step up to take the psychic test. See just how good you really are. > **[Psychic Test](https://aleroy.com/arcade/psytest.htm)** > > Psychic Test. [/QUOTE] See you do not understand skeptics. We change our minds all the time. As for your test I would put up a significant amount of money to see you do it 5,000 times and score better than average. If you can’t I wouldn’t even expect you to pay me anything. I know, I know your spirit guide does not work that way… I tell you what lekatt, tell me one thing, anything, verifiable that is going to happen tomorow (something that doesn’t happen everyday). Make it specific enough so it is clearly not a WAG. YOU CAN"T. But if you did I would be open to look into it further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-randi-calls-time-on-the-1-million-dollar-prize/432263.md?page=7)