[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, of course there is, you can tell truth by its peace and quite.
[/QUOTE]
So mental illness is never peaceful or quiet?
[QUOTE=enigm4tic]
Again, as I stated before, there are many of us who are willing to be disproved.
Furthermore I, for example, am a fencesitter. While I have never seen demonstrable evidence of psychic powers or the paranormal, I don’t rule out such a thing as a possibility, and am open to those who can prove it. I repeat my question in my previous post, originally made by another: you have made a claim that you worked on a (presumably successful) criminal case as a psychic. We asked for verifiable information that psychic gifts were successful, accurate, and critical to the conclusion of the case, including an independant cite. Presumably, some documentation exists of this.
Secondarily, you keep repeating that the “gift” isn’t supposed to be used in certain ways, or in fact won’t respond at all in certain circumstances. Why, exactly, would disproving a skeptic, and proving your position, be outside of these rules, money or no. In fact, as pointed out above, why would winning the money in order to fund a charity be something the “spirit guide” wouldn’t like?
I’m confused at to the rules. Not in a snarky way, like I expect you to produce “a manual to your new spirit guide! (batteries not included, Made in China)” but how, exactly, do you determine what the spirit guide responds to? Can’t you at least explain how it works in a reasoned way, even if you can’t call it up on demand to show us that it works, so that we can evaluate those rules?
[/QUOTE]
The one I participated in was local, with a local group of psychics, we received some items to read in order to catch a burglar. Not something sensational. It happened more than fifteen years ago. We were not told anything else about the case. We asked for feedback to see if the information helped and was told they had found the guy and our information was helpful, nothing more. It was the only time I did this. I was more disposed to healing, and support groups which I participated in for many years. The group finally broke up due to a number of reasons, all simple ones, no drama here. Recently some of the former participants have expressed a desire to start another group.
Now, I can produce no manual, many have been written, if you want to find one at the book store. Most agree it is best to learn the principles in a group. How it works. You listen for your guide from your heart, not your mind. You practice controlling your thoughts, harness your emotions, and learn to love. This opens the way of communication to the spirit realm. Sounds easy, but takes serious practice and committment.
[QUOTE=fluiddruid]
That’s exactly why the Randi challenge is a good test.
If psychic powers exist as a real skill, then surely someone – sooner or later – would have decided to demonstrate their skill for a million dollars.
If psychic powers don’t exist, no claimed psychic who is making any money as such would take the risk, because they (on some level) know they cannot pass.
The latter is exactly what we have seen. A lot of nobodies have tried, with complete lack of success, but the big names haven’t. Why? They know they will fail. If psychic abilities really did exist, why not take the opportunity to become the first proven psychic? I sure would jump at the opportunity to win a million dollars from using a skill I have. I don’t think any of them would turn down a free million dollars, so what’s the problem?
Of course, some argue that the test is unpassable, and what have you. Okay, then, why not set up your own test and prove that you can demonstrate psychic abilities? Why not prove Randi wrong? Again, nobody has managed to do this. Why not, if psychic abilities exist?
The fact of the matter is that high-profile psychics will never submit to testing whatever the criteria. You’re exactly right, they have too much to lose – and, as they know, also nothing to gain because they cannot pass any such test.
Any effect that is not detectable cannot have a demonstrable effect on the events of the real world. If the information can’t be detected, it can’t be used, because we don’t know it. You can’t claim on the one hand that psychics solve crimes but on the other that proof is undetectable; the two statements contradict each other.
If psychics can make meaningful predictions, then those predictions can be studied and confirmed or refuted. If they can’t be confirmed or refuted because there’s no way to determine a good prediction (based on changing skill level, various events, the alignment of Jupiter and Mars, or whatever) then psychic predictions are meaningless and can’t signify anything. That’s just simple logic.
[/QUOTE]
Logic is never simple, and carries all the pitfalls of any other opinion.
[QUOTE=Bayard]
Too bad. Like I said, I’d never really seen much of him. Just some clips of mind-boggling tricks.
I like Randi quite a bit, and I don’t have any qualms about his challenge. I do agree, however, that his abrasive and condescending approach will win few converts. I read his site every Friday, and he even posted one of my (very long) emails once. But really, the guy is kind of a prick. I agree with about 99% of what he says, but still.
If the goal is to remove the demand for “psychics” and other balderdash by educating people, skeptics will get a lot farther with wit and good humor than with finger-wagging. Look at things like Snopes.com and MythBusters, which don’t try to make you feel like an ass for being taken in by urban legends. I do realize that belief in psychics is a different animal from acceptance of ULs, but I would think that skeptics could take a page out of their book.
In another thread, I posted this link to a This American Life epsiode that showed how a “haunted house” could be easily explained. It’s completely convincing and utterly non-threatening (it’s Ira Glass–how could it be abrasive?). This is an example of what I envision. Some nice guy like Ira Glass, who maybe wants to believe it himself, will make more new skeptics that Randi calling the believers fools.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, even a more “interested” approach would be nice. But in the long run more people than ever are consulting psychics. There is a resurgence of interest in spiritual things going on in this country. Notice I did not say religious. They are not going to psychics to have their fortunes told. It is something far deeper than that, people really want to know about spirit.
Now IMHO there is no chance that skeptics will ever stem, or stop the flow. Several reasons. Spiritual people are positive people, they help others. Religions do a huge amount of charity work worldwide. They feed, house, teach, and clothe millions of poor people every year. In my home town there was a large ice storm that knocked out electrical power to 234,000 homes and businesses. The churches jumped into action, those with power because shelters, and church people went door to door to check on others. Spiritual counsellors get results, they help millions of people to live better more productive lives, giving them a purpose and meaning, a goal to live up to.
While skeptics, well, I really don’t know what they do but belittle people who don’t agree with them. You get the idea, we need positive spiritual people in this world more than we need skeptics. Can’t believe I said that, stand back for the counter wave.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
So mental illness is never peaceful or quiet?
[/QUOTE]
Only if they are dead.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Only if they are dead.
[/QUOTE]
And you are sure of this because…?
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
If you are going to go through the trouble of asking him a question, it seems a bit rude to answer for him as if you could read his mind. Are you claiming to have telepathy?
[/QUOTE]
Just call it years of personal experience.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Just call it years of personal experience.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, yes.
Dreams and spirit guides.
[QUOTE=SpaceDog]
I’ve not seen any of Bullshit! (does it get shown over here?)
[/quote]
All seasons (originally shown on Showtime cable) are available on DVDs (do you get Netflix over there?).
So, is lekatt a psychic?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
How about coming up with a cite for what I asked.
[/QUOTE]
How about a case# date, and defendant for the case you worked on. Since court transcripts are generally public record, this will not be any huge secret. If evidence was entered or testimony taken from the psychic in question or yourself this would probably get you alot further than any of your usual attempts at debate.
[QUOTE=drachillix]
How about a case# date, and defendant for the case you worked on. Since court transcripts are generally public record, this will not be any huge secret. If evidence was entered or testimony taken from the psychic in question or yourself this would probably get you alot further than any of your usual attempts at debate.
[/QUOTE]
I told you we never had that information, read the post.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Spiritual people are positive people, they help others. Religions do a huge amount of charity work worldwide. They feed, house, teach, and clothe millions of poor people every year. In my home town there was a large ice storm that knocked out electrical power to 234,000 homes and businesses. The churches jumped into action, those with power because shelters, and church people went door to door to check on others. Spiritual counsellors get results, they help millions of people to live better more productive lives, giving them a purpose and meaning, a goal to live up to.
While skeptics, well, I really don’t know what they do but belittle people who don’t agree with them. You get the idea, we need positive spiritual people in this world more than we need skeptics. Can’t believe I said that, stand back for the counter wave.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly some religious people do help others.
There are also religious wars (Middle Ages in Europe, Middle East, Northern Ireland, Iraq) which kill millions of people.
There are also religious cults which suck money out of people and split families.
Al-Qaeda is made up of religious believers, who are prepared to lay down their lives for their spiritual beliefs.
The point is that a church / religion is not necessarily good or evil - its actions show its worth.
Presumably when there was the large ice storm you also had firemen, policemen, ambulancemen, electricians, engineers, insurance agents, bankers, social workers and even politicians helping.
None of these people were working for religious reasons. And although the church did a nice thing, the people I mention did far more to sort out the situation.
[QUOTE=bonzer]
Guessing that it was Jon Ronson’s - typically fascinating - recentish article for The Guardian about going on one of her cruises.
[/QUOTE]
That’s it! Thanks.
Quite right.
I hate to be a gloomy Gus, but perhaps superstition and religion are immune to logic and reason. (“Our lasers don’t affect them Captain, there seems to be some sort of force field around them.”)
The JRF $1,000,000 challenge had its predecessor in a fund set up by none other than Harry Houdini. The following quote is from this article.
"Prior to his untimely death in 1926, Houdini made a secret pact with Bess, his wife of thirty-two years. They made a ten word code which only each of them knew. Each would try their best to communicate with the other once they passed over. The correct code would act as proof that it was really them coming through from the other side. For ten (10) years Mrs. Houdini offered a $10,000 reward for anyone, psychic or layman, who could communicate with Harry. She visited psychics from around the world in an attempt to communicate with him. Not a single psychic could produce the secret code, although almost all of them claimed to have communicated with Houdini himself on the other side. In her last seance in 1936, she tried one final time to reach Harry. After this final failure, Bess made this little speech, “I do not think that Harry will come back to me, or anyone. I think the dead don’t speak. I now regretfully turn out the light. This is the end, Harry, good night!” She then blew out the candle that she had lit after his death and that had been buring for him for ten years. In 1937, Mrs. Houdini, sent out a final letter to the media, the general public and to those psychics who participated saying, “Since the failure of the ten year test, it is my opinion that all concerned have struck a mighty worldwide blow at superstition.”
Poor Madame Houdini! If only it were so! Over 80 years later, John Edward and others have raked in untold fortunes “speaking” to the dead, and people like Mitt Romney, who believe that Jesus appeared in America and that the Book of Mormon records real events in pre-Columbian America are treated like reasonable persons whose religious viewpoints must be respected (I did not say their RIGHT to their religious viewpoint. That is absolute and untouchable. I said the viewpoint itself.)
Forty years after the human race became so technologically advanced that it can land on the Moon, millions of people refuse to believe it happened and yet we make psychics like Edwards rich with the fruits of our credulity.
When it comes to the ignorance and superstition of humanity, I have become a pessimist.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
The one I participated in was local, with a local group of psychics, we received some items to read in order to catch a burglar. Not something sensational. It happened more than fifteen years ago. We were not told anything else about the case. We asked for feedback to see if the information helped and was told they had found the guy and our information was helpful, nothing more. It was the only time I did this.
[/QUOTE]
An arrest in the case would’ve been a matter of public record, as would the subsequent trial/plea/sentencing. Your apparent indifference to the outcome is remarkable; if I had been a participant I would’ve been utterly riveted by the news that we had helped, and would’ve sought out every bit of information on the case I could, to see exactly how we had done so.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
We asked for feedback to see if the information helped and was told they had found the guy and our information was helpful, nothing more.
[/QUOTE]
Why would you have to ask the authorities, couldn’t your spirit guide tell you? Did it occur to you that the guy who said your info was helpful was just being polite or humoring you? o you see dead people? Do you know Bruce Willis?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Logic is never simple, and carries all the pitfalls of any other opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Logic is not “an opinion.”
Skepticism, by the way, isn’t an “emotion.”
I’ve got $1000 says you can’t prove you or anyone else is a psychic in a controlled test, with conditions we both agree on.
[QUOTE=glee]
Certainly some religious people do help others.
There are also religious wars (Middle Ages in Europe, Middle East, Northern Ireland, Iraq) which kill millions of people.
There are also religious cults which suck money out of people and split families.
Al-Qaeda is made up of religious believers, who are prepared to lay down their lives for their spiritual beliefs.
The point is that a church / religion is not necessarily good or evil - its actions show its worth.
Presumably when there was the large ice storm you also had firemen, policemen, ambulancemen, electricians, engineers, insurance agents, bankers, social workers and even politicians helping.
None of these people were working for religious reasons. And although the church did a nice thing, the people I mention did far more to sort out the situation.
[/QUOTE]
A church or religion do not take any actions, it is people who take the actions. Some good people and some not so good. There is no religion that teaches war. But there are people that teach war.
Now, your comparison of people who are skilled and do their jobs for pay, and people who give their time, money, and property for the use of others without any compensation fails to be logical or rational. Those religious people did not have to get out in the cold, icy night. They did it out of compassion and caring for others, which is what religion teaches. You just don’t have a clue about religions.
There were over 8,000 power line and tree workers from 14 different states came to Tulsa to help restore the power. All of which were paid double time wages. We appreciated them and thanked them at every chance. I am sure a lot of them felt good about helping others.
I did take a few pictures in my yard, almost getting hit by falling limbs. You can see them at:
http://aleroy.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=9
[QUOTE=lekatt]
But in the long run more people than ever are consulting psychics. There is a resurgence of interest in spiritual things going on in this country.
[/quote]
I do not know if this is the case. My observations suggest that it is so, but I don’t know if, in fact, more people are consulting psychics now than before. In any event, it is irrelevant. Just because a lot of people are doing it, doesn’t mean it’s not stupid.
I am an athiest and “skeptic”. In the past decade: I spent 3.5 years working in disaster relief for the American Red Cross; I was a volunteer firefighter for 3 years; I volunteered at an inner-city social services agency for a year; I volunteered at a mental health agency for over a year; I have made a career out of working in healthcare because I like helping people. I do not belittle anyone, and in fact I’ve made a pretty fair effort not to belittle you in this thread, even though others have. If you want to debate whether some performer can speak to the dead, fine. But saying that “spiritual” people have a more positive impact on society is really annoying.
Skepticism is not an emotion, an opinion, or a kneejerk negation. Skepticism is simply the principle that people making claims need to be able to prove them. If someone claims that there is a God, or that a performer can speak to the dead, or that a drug can cure an illness, a skeptic holds them all the the same standard – “prove it”. I want skeptics reviewing medical journals and running the FDA and designing bridges. When GM says their new car is safe, I want a skeptic to say, “prove it”. When my doctor says that a drug will help my asthma, I am comforted that the drug has been put through the skeptical ringer before I buy it and put it in my body. You don’t know what skeptics are good for? My guess is that you and I are both skeptics. I am merely skeptical about more topics than you are.