# James T. Kirk never courtmartialed for losing crew? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840 "2020-04-29T20:49:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/21 "2020-04-29T22:23:14Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Everyone on board was a qualified astronaut and hence an officer, at least at the start. But there were still “crewmen” and “technicians” of different grades around even in the earliest episodes. Yeomans are enlisted. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/22 "2020-04-29T22:40:22Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And Scotty. What was he thinking bringing that poor kid to the bridge, instead of to sickbay? The dramatic-license dampeners were malfunctioning. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/23 "2020-04-29T22:40:35Z")
It’s been awhile since I’ve watched the series, but it’s my recollection that most of the incidents in which a crew member was killed were as part of an away team mission of which Kirk himself was a member. Discounting the “fact” that a show’s main character isn’t going to get killed and looking at it from Kirk’s own point of view, didn’t he place himself in at least as much danger as anybody else? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/24 "2020-04-29T22:50:48Z")
Maybe he wrote \*terrific \*reports - thorough, comprehensive, well-structured, with extensive citations and explanations. I bet every time a crewman died, Command would read Kirk’s dispatches and say, “Yeah, I guess that checks out.” You write a good report, you can get away with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/25 "2020-04-29T22:52:19Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Kirk was Teflon. And he practiced “Cowboy Diplomacy.” > ~VOW On the other hand, how many menaces capable of wiping out life on an inter-planetary scale did Kirk & co. stop? He’d earned a bit of slack. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/26 "2020-04-29T23:10:42Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It’s been awhile since I’ve watched the series, but it’s my recollection that most of the incidents in which a crew member was killed were as part of an away team mission of which Kirk himself was a member. Discounting the “fact” that a show’s main character isn’t going to get killed and looking at it from Kirk’s own point of view, didn’t he place himself in at least as much danger as anybody else? That was something that always bugged me about the original series. Not only the Commanding Officer and the First Officer, but sometimes also the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Engineer would go on scouting missions in unknown and possibly hostile planets, accompanied by only a few security officers. It would be catastrophic to have the entire senior command of the ship to be wiped out all at once. In the unlikely event the Commanding Officer were to go, certainly the second in command shouldn’t go on the same mission. And why should the Chief Engineer go on a scouting mission in any case? Sometimes they sent Chekov as well; why the hell would they send a Navigator? ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/27 "2020-04-29T23:17:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That was something that always bugged me about the original series. Not only the Commanding Officer and the First Officer, but sometimes also the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Engineer would go on scouting missions in unknown and possibly hostile planets, accompanied by only a few security officers. It would be catastrophic to have the entire senior command of the ship to be wiped out all at once. In the unlikely event the Commanding Officer were to go, certainly the second in command shouldn’t go on the same mission. And why should the Chief Engineer go on a scouting mission in any case? Sometimes they sent Chekov as well; why the hell would they send a Navigator? My take was the Org Chart was _really_ flat. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/28 "2020-04-29T23:19:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe he wrote \*terrific \*reports - thorough, comprehensive, well-structured, with extensive citations and explanations. I bet every time a crewman died, Command would read Kirk’s dispatches and say, “Yeah, I guess that checks out.” You write a good report, you can get away with anything. [Worked for L. Ron Hubbard.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22275538&postcount=16) For a while, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/29 "2020-04-30T00:02:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I guess we can conclude that deaths in the line-of-duty are considered no big deal, then. We have to consider that some of the deaths were due to acts of war (“Balance of Terror” for one). Kirk was pretty broken up about the death of the crewman in “The Man Trap” - which makes sense, since that was a milk run mission (delivering supplies to an archaeologist), when death shouldn’t happen at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/30 "2020-04-30T02:11:18Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Though that was an accusation of (essentially) murder. And he was charged because he supposedly ejected the officer too early. Quite different from losing a red shirt who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/31 "2020-04-30T02:17:25Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > On the other hand, how many menaces capable of wiping out life on an inter-planetary scale did Kirk & co. stop? He’d earned a bit of slack. Listen, whenever Earth has been threatened with destruction, Kirk and Spock become superheroes and rode to the rescue! Nomad, The Doomsday Machine, Space Seed, V’ger, The Probe looking for the whales. I don’t know why, when Picard had to rescue Kirk from they Nexus to save Earth from Soran’s machinations. Picard was the current captain of the Enterprise. It was his turn to save Earth! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/32 "2020-04-30T02:22:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe he wrote \*terrific \*reports - thorough, comprehensive, well-structured, with extensive citations and explanations. I bet every time a crewman died, Command would read Kirk’s dispatches and say, “Yeah, I guess that checks out.” You write a good report, you can get away with anything. And we know he was willing to lie in those reports since he was going to call Matt Decker a hero, not a wacko. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/33 "2020-04-30T02:24:42Z")
He was good compared to Picard. Maybe Picard didn’t lose red shirts left and right, but he lost a whole chunk of his ship because of a tiff with Q. Not to mention being responsible for the loss of most of the fleet. Worst thing that happened seemed to be that Sisko was bit miffed with him. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/34 "2020-04-30T04:47:08Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Yeomans are enlisted. I think you mean “Yeomen,” and according to _ **TMoST** _, they were not: “The ‘enlisted men’ category does not exist. **Star Trek** goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. \*Enterprise \*is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.” (P. 209) As for Chekov, he was always supposed to be a young Captain Kirk in training, so it made sense to have him perform a wide variety of duties, including serving in landing parties. In “The Gamesters of Triskelion,” the original task was to inspect an automatic navigational station, hence Chekov’s presence in that episode. (In reality, his part was written for Sulu, who was off filming _ **The Green Berets** _ at the time. The same was true for “The Trouble with Tribbles” and probably a couple of other episodes as well.) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/35 "2020-04-30T05:03:18Z")
He should have been disciplined for abandoning post to lead every away mission on whatever hellscape they happened to stumble onto (with his first mate and ship doctor too!). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/36 "2020-04-30T05:19:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > He was good compared to Picard. Maybe Picard didn’t lose red shirts left and right, but he lost a whole chunk of his ship because of a tiff with Q. Not to mention being responsible for the loss of most of the fleet. Worst thing that happened seemed to be that Sisko was bit miffed with him. And he had to go spend a long weekend with his brother. However, neither compared to Janaway who stranded her entire crew on the other side of the galaxy for…reasons. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/37 "2020-04-30T06:01:57Z")
I recall the old Congress of Wonders skit **Star Trip** of “the starship Intercourse thrusting its way through space on another penetrating mission” featured Capt Smirk being punished with a good pants-down cane thrashing. Not on the recorded version, but in a live show at The Family Dog circa 1970. Them was the days. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/38 "2020-04-30T12:36:20Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It’s stated in _ **The Making of Star Trek** _ (Whitfield and Roddenberry, 1968) that the size of the crew complement was necessary in part because personnel could occasionally be left behind on a planet to perform surveys, liason with the native populations, conduct research, and so on. The \*Enterprise \*had to be able to sustain such tempoarry losses of personnel and keep operating. “Liason with the native populations.” That’s Riker’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/39 "2020-04-30T13:29:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > ## You are also off on your count. During the original series, the body count for crew was 25 red, 10 gold and 8 blue. Far below your estimate of 79. Since the red shirts number 239 at the start, they lose around 10%. But the death rate for gold shirts is 18%! Blue is the safest with less than 6%. See the Tech Manual for data. > > You are off by a factor of at least 3. NCC-1701 had a crew of 430. Thank you! I did have to dig into the closet to pull out the book, but you’re correct, the [_Star Fleet Technical Manual_](https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/0345340744) by Franz Joseph does list 430 crew. Interestingly enough, there was a note in that figure [sup][1][/sup] that I’ll bring up later . . > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He _was_ court-martialed for losing crew in the first-season episode titled, of all things, “Court Martial”. Kirk had to account for his actions that led to the death of a crew member. There was a twist, of course. I might not have gotten to this episode in the series yet. . . > [@silenus](#): > > I also believe that if you check, most of the blue shirt deaths are people on TDY (ie guest stars). Blue crew permanently assigned to the Enterprise were quite safe. > [@terentii](#): > > Also, it’s said in _ **TMoST** _ that for the ship to do what it does, it has to carry specialists in every branch of science. Further justification for the large crew complement. So, the two above comments lead me to the question: **Is there a reference to percentages of the 430 that are blue/yellow/red shirts on the Enterprise**? This would sort of change my perspective on the original question; if Kirk is losing redshirts, and they’re 75% of the crew, then the percentages change a little bit. Also, what is “_ **TMoST** _”? ETA: did I just get ninja’d over breakfast with **TMoST** being “_The Making of Star Trek_”? > [@garygnu](#): > > Ensign was the lowest rank on board, at least initially. Non-commissioned officers later showed up, but mostly even the most junior crew members are officers. [sup]\*[/sup] This is the comment I was going to bring up. Franz Joseph’s _Star Fleet Technical Manual_ made the following comment: > [@](#): > > [sub]From [Star Fleet Technical Manual](https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/0345340744)[/sub] > Crew: 43 Officers; Crew **(Ensign Grade)** 387. This comment, coupled with **terentii** statement below. . . > [@terentii](#): > > I think you mean “Yeomen,” and according to _ **TMoST** _, they were not: > > “The ‘enlisted men’ category does not exist. **Star Trek** goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. \*Enterprise \*is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.” (P. 209) Changes one of the major points I’d asked about. He’s not gutting the Officer Corps per se, since _everyone_ on board is a qualified astronaut, and thus an officer, then Star Fleet is geared towards cranking out Ensigns from the Academy like the 20th Century Army cranks out Privates from Boot Camp. I _thought_ I had all of the Star Trek books (to include my own copy of StarFleet Battles!), but I must have missed one. Can you send me a link/pic of “_ **TMoST** _”? ETA: Yeah, did \*\* BrotherCadfael\*\* spell it out? Derp. . . > [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe he wrote \*terrific \*reports - thorough, comprehensive, well-structured, with extensive citations and explanations. I bet every time a crewman died, Command would read Kirk’s dispatches and say, “Yeah, I guess that checks out.” You write a good report, you can get away with anything. $20 space bucks that Kirk wrote things like this: > [@](#): > > [del]I ordered Ensign Schmoe to engage and secure the Horta’s cave by any means necessary via direct action through destruction by fire. He died following my direction.[/del] Ensign Schmoe valiantly, with disregard for his own personal safety, engaged the Horta, to draw its wrath away from his fellow Away Team members. Ensign Schmoe sacrificed himself while saving his fellow crewmembers from certain death. Back to the original question; if Kirk was losing folks, how’d Star Fleet’s Directorate of Operations not see and question a _sustained_ attrition rate? I can dig a onesey-twosey here and there, but losing [43 crew member](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22277799&postcount=3)s over 79 episodes? That’s over half a crew member per episode to death to just “exploration.” Tripler Apparently, redshirts _are_ a dime-a-dozen in the 23rd Century. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/40 "2020-04-30T13:39:13Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Back to the original question; if Kirk was losing folks, how’d Star Fleet’s Directorate of Operations not see and question a _sustained_ attrition rate? I can dig a onesey-twosey here and there, but losing [43 crew member](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22277799&postcount=3)s over 79 episodes? That’s over half a crew member per episode to death to just “exploration.” > > Tripler > Apparently, redshirts _are_ a dime-a-dozen in the 23rd Century. There’s a great book _Redshirts_, by John Scalzi, where the red shirt crewmen start asking that very question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=3)