# James T. Kirk never courtmartialed for losing crew? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840 "2020-04-29T20:49:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/41 "2020-04-30T13:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Stranger on a Train** : > > However, neither compared to Janaway who stranded her entire crew on the other side of the galaxy for…reasons. Oh, come on. Her choices were to strand her crew on the other side of the Galaxy, or to obey the Prime Directive. I mean, you can’t realistically expect a Starfleet captain to pass up an opportunity to violate the Prime Directive, can you? She really had no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/42 "2020-04-30T13:57:17Z")
ISTR that Kirk’s ship didn’t have “Away Teams”, but “Landing Parties”. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/43 "2020-04-30T13:57:53Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Apparently, redshirts _are_ a dime-a-dozen in the 23rd Century. Again, Kirk’s attrition rate is only a few times worse than the peacetime death rate for the US navy from 1993-2000, during non-exploratory missions. The novelization of Star Trek the Motion Picture states that Kirk was the first captain (!) to complete a five-year mission with his ship and crew substantially intact. Kirk seems bad, but apparently Starfleet crew would be begging for Enterprise berths (the alternative would be a captain like Decker who lost his entire crew). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/44 "2020-04-30T14:18:22Z")
Some of y’all are being awfully hard on Captain Kirk. > [@garygnu](#): > > In any case, the “exploration” aspect of the mission means occasional loss of crew is to be expected. It’s more like Magellan or Cook than a contemporary naval sailing. [Magellan’s expedition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magellan%27s_circumnavigation) started off with about 270 men in five ships. Three years later, _18_ men in _one_ ship managed to make it back to Spain. (Magellan wasn’t one of them–uh, spoiler alert!–since in real life the Captain does _not_ have “plot armor”.) To be fair, the other 250+ men didn’t _all_ die; at some point the _San Antonio_ said “screw _this_, we’re going home” and [returned to Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magellan%27s_circumnavigation#Desertion_of_San_Antonio). James Cook is famous for not losing any crewmen _to scurvy_, but that didn’t mean he didn’t lose any members of his crew. On his first voyage, [he lost 30 men](https://www.britannica.com/biography/James-Cook) (out of a [a total complement of 94](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Endeavour)) to disease after stopping in at the Dutch colony of Batavia (modern Jakarta, Indonesia). On his third voyage–spoiler alert again!–[Cook himself was killed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_voyage_of_James_Cook#Death), along with four literal “red shirts”–Corporal James Thomas, Private Theophilus Hinks, Private Thomas Fatchett, and Private John Allen, all of the [Royal Marines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Royal_Marines_from_1664_to_1896.jpg). That’s just the sort of thing that happens when you “boldly go where no man has gone before”. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/45 "2020-04-30T14:30:23Z")
OK, hang on with me here. Kirk was rightfully lauded for the five-year mission. Because, according to the forward to the novelization of the first movie - behold my nerdy memory - Enterprise is the only one of the 13 original Constitution-class starships to make it back with both ship and crew in any way intact. That is, despite his losses of personnel, Kirk’s record exceeded that of all other five-year missions the Federation sent out into the void. So either the Federation can say the entire program - expense, lives and so forth - were a terrible idea or they can paint Kirk et al as ‘true heroes’ and ‘representing the best of us’ and work on getting to NextGen levels of utopia without the need for Kirk any further. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/46 "2020-04-30T14:36:33Z")
We know from TNG that loss of ship mandates a court martial. (Mostly, for surviving it, I think.) I think it fair to conclude that this is not a recent policy, but individual crew losses would probably be looked at as part of a Captain’s annual performance review. As for Scotty rigging the ship to perform with a skeleton crew: One must ask how long a mission that was intended to be the case for: Zipping out to Genesis Planet and back, no problem. Five year mission, I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/47 "2020-04-30T14:55:58Z")
Another reason for a larger crew: cabin fever. How many of you are going slowly stir-crazy from being isolated with just a few outside contacts? It’s only been a few weeks. Stretch that out to _5 years!_ The more people, the more you can get away from the ones who are driving you crazy, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/48 "2020-04-30T14:58:19Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > “The ‘enlisted men’ category does not exist. **Star Trek** goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. \*Enterprise \*is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.” (P. 209) Even if you reject the notion of commissioned officers and enlisted people, and go with some sort of unified rank system, you’re STILL going to have people who are low-ranking and work in the ship’s laundry, or collect garbage, or clean the heads. And you’re STILL going to have the commander, XO, boatswain, various other department heads, etc… along with people in between to carry out orders. I mean, I think Roddenberry was trying to get at some sort of notion that Starfleet was more exclusive and space-agey than your average military, and trying to use 1960s terminology (“qualified astronaut”) to indicate that. But it’s kind of dumb to say that there would be no officers; there would be people doing those roles, even if they didn’t have an official commission from the Starfleet Prime Minister or whoever granting them authority. And there would be people doing the enlisted roles as well. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/49 "2020-04-30T14:59:40Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Because, according to the forward to the novelization of the first movie - behold my nerdy memory - Enterprise is the only one of the 13 original Constitution-class starships to make it back with both ship and crew in any way intact. That is, despite his losses of personnel, Kirk’s record exceeded that of all other five-year missions the Federation sent out into the void. See post 43 [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22278944&postcount=43](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22278944&postcount=43) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/50 "2020-04-30T15:02:39Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I think you mean “Yeomen,” and according to _ **TMoST** _, they were not: Yeomen, indeed. No wonder spellcheck didn’t like it. A yeoman in a US Navy enlisted rank but clearly that’s different in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/51 "2020-04-30T15:47:03Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > That’s just the sort of thing that happens when you “boldly go where no man has gone before”. Actually, that is just the sort of thing that happens when you split infinitives. Using proper grammar saves lives. > [@E-DUB](#): > > As for Scotty rigging the ship to perform with a skeleton crew: One must ask how long a mission that was intended to be the case for: Zipping out to Genesis Planet and back, no problem. Five year mission, I don’t think so. That begs the question of why such automation isn’t used more. The “Jeffries tubes” are ergonomically ill-designed in terms of access by the engineering crew for apparently routine servicing; for some reason the ships’ designers made the tubes big enough to move through only in a severe crouch, and many of them have open ports with large vertical drops and only built in ladder to move up and down with no apparent fall protection even though all of the gravity on the ship is artificially generated and could presumably be deactivated in that area for ease of movement. It would make more sense to have the internal workings of the ship accessibly primarily by remotely operated or autonomous servitors and only human servicing in an extreme case of damage or failure. Instead, we see no automation except for the ship’s computer, and everybody seems shocked that Lt. Cmdr Data is an android as if the technology of the era shouldn’t be able to crank them out by the billions. We can only imagine what _Snowpiercer_-esque horror show is going on under the deck panels in Main Engineering. > [@silenus](#): > > Another reason for a larger crew: cabin fever. How many of you are going slowly stir-crazy from being isolated with just a few outside contacts? It’s only been a few weeks. Stretch that out to _5 years!_ The more people, the more you can get away from the ones who are driving you crazy, and vice versa. On that basis, we may assume that the junior crew on away teams are not selected for their skills, bravery, or fighting prowess, but for how low they stand on the weekly crew popularity survey. Ensign Schmidt developed an annoying whistling habit and next thing you know he’s demoted from Junior Astrodynamical Gravitation Technician to Security Team Member #2, given a red uniform shirt, and sent down to the next planet with Kirk, Bones, and the attractive new blonde lieutenant in a gold miniskirt to demonstrate that the apparently idyllic forest moon populated by walking teddy bears is actually a cannibal nightmare from the mind of Wes Craven. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/52 "2020-04-30T20:20:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But it’s kind of dumb to say that there would be no officers; there would be people doing those roles, even if they didn’t have an official commission from the Starfleet Prime Minister or whoever granting them authority. And there would be people doing the enlisted roles as well. Hey, don’t blame me! I was merely quoting the Trekkie Bible: “Although the \*Enterprise \*is a military vessel, its organization is only semimilitary.” and “Reference is occasionally made to ‘the crew,’ in which case it is a generalized statement meant to include everyone aboard the ship. A reference to ‘senior officers’ would refer to a much smaller, specific group of the crew members.” (Op. cit., P. 209) I don’t make up this shit, I just parrot it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/53 "2020-04-30T20:32:44Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Also, what is “_ **TMoST** _”? ETA: did I just get ninja’d over breakfast with **TMoST** being “_The Making of Star Trek_”? > > … > > I _thought_ I had all of the Star Trek books (to include my own copy of StarFleet Battles!), but I must have missed one. Can you send me a link/pic of “_ **TMoST** _”? > **[The Making of Star Trek](https://books.google.pl/books/about/The_Making_of_Star_Trek.html?id=QYOFAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y)** > > A complete history of what may be the most popular TV series ever -- the original Star Trek "TM" episodes! Filled with quotations from cast members, memos to and from Gene Roddenberry, biographies of cast members, sketches, photographs, set... First published in 1968, however, it does not cover the third season and is therefore not “the complete history.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/54 "2020-04-30T20:36:20Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I think you mean “Yeomen,” and according to _ **TMoST** _, they were not: > > “The ‘enlisted men’ category does not exist. **Star Trek** goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. \*Enterprise \*is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.” (P. 209) [“Yeoman” wasn’t a rank, but a description of duties.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Yeoman) They were basically personal assistants, their responsibilities apparently consisting mainly of getting coffee for the captain, bringing him stuff to sign, and having a crush on him. They were apparently mostly of the lowest rank (ensign or whatever), except in one of the movies there was a yeoman who was a lieutenant jg. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/55 "2020-04-30T21:26:18Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > We know from TNG that loss of ship mandates a court martial. (Mostly, for surviving it, I think.) I think it fair to conclude that this is not a recent policy, but individual crew losses would probably be looked at as part of a Captain’s annual performance review. > > (snip) Not a recent policy at all; the Royal Navy court-martialed any captain who lost his ship, as far back as the 18th century, if Patrick O’Brian can be trusted (and he’s usually pretty accurate with the history). Jack Aubrey faces one after losing the _Sophie_ to the French; he’s cleared. According to Wikipedia, (which I trust less than I do POB), most navies hold a court-martial when a ship is lost, which is less about assigning blame and more to establish and record the circumstance of the incident. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/56 "2020-04-30T21:47:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [“Yeoman” wasn’t a rank, but a description of duties.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Yeoman) They were basically personal assistants, their responsibilities apparently consisting mainly of getting coffee for the captain, bringing him stuff to sign, and having a crush on him. They were apparently mostly of the lowest rank (ensign or whatever), except in one of the movies there was a yeoman who was a lieutenant jg. I have no idea of how accurate that page is with regards to canon but it says that Yeoman Rand from TOS was enlisted. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/57 "2020-04-30T22:06:50Z")
The best bet is to just ignore anything Roddenberry said about ranks. Can anybody actually envision Janice Rand going through astronaut school? Or any of the red shirts that get blown up, disintegrated, zapped, turned into duodecahedrons? The Great Bird of the Galaxy was and always will be full of horta shit. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/58 "2020-04-30T22:09:39Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I have no idea of how accurate that page is with regards to canon but it says that Yeoman Rand from TOS was enlisted. I am shocked, \*\*\*shocked \*\*\*to learn of this inconsistency! :eek: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/59 "2020-04-30T22:15:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The Great Bird of the Galaxy was and always will be full of horta shit. What a burn. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/60 "2020-04-30T22:25:46Z")
A LOT of people figured “Yeoman” was Trek-speak for female go-fer. **TMoST** is one of my favorite books! My copy is so dog-eared and ratty! I loved the discussion on why the green makeup planned for Spock wasn’t photographing green. The 60s censors were adamant the Kirk HAD to keep his mouth closed during kissing. The censors also vetoed any costume design that revealed the UNDERSIDE of a woman’s breast. Nobody understood why. Some speculated the censors thought moss grew there. ~VOW [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=4)