# James T. Kirk never courtmartialed for losing crew? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840 "2020-04-29T20:49:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/61 "2020-04-30T22:41:58Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > **TMoST** is one of my favorite books! My copy is so dog-eared and ratty! I bought my first copy in 1970, when I was in 10th grade. The one I have now I got at an Anglican church rummage sale in Moscow 15–20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/62 "2020-04-30T22:46:16Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I have no idea of how accurate that page is with regards to canon but it says that Yeoman Rand from TOS was enlisted. It’s a Wiki. Anyone can edit it. So I wouldn’t count on it necessarily being consistent with other information. FWIW, the character [Tina Lawton](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tina_Lawton) was a yeoman third class and supposedly 17 years old to match the age of Charlie X (although the actress was 21). In order for her to have graduated Starfleet Academy, which typically lasted four years, she would have had to have started at 13. Whatever they call the lowest rank on a Starship, functionally they are clearly equivalent to enlisted personnel in modern navies, even if highly trained. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/63 "2020-04-30T22:50:38Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > A LOT of people figured “Yeoman” was Trek-speak for female go-fer. From my link: > [@](#): > > “When I get my hands on the Headquarters genius that assigned me a female yeoman…” > “What’s the matter Jim, don’t you trust yourself?” > “I’ve already got a female to worry about. Her name’s the Enterprise.”" > – James T. Kirk and Leonard McCoy discussing Yeoman Janice Rand Apparently, it wasn’t typical for yeomen to be female, but nearly all the yeopersons we see are young women. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/64 "2020-04-30T22:56:50Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Back to the original question; if Kirk was losing folks, how’d Star Fleet’s Directorate of Operations not see and question a _sustained_ attrition rate? I can dig a onesey-twosey here and there, but losing [43 crew member](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22277799&postcount=3)s over 79 episodes? That’s over half a crew member per episode to death to just “exploration.” One could probably argue that there were plenty of successful-but-boring missions where no one died in between episodes. After all, who wants to spend 50 minutes watching the crew of the Enterprise scan asteroids for rare minerals? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/65 "2020-04-30T23:26:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The best bet is to just ignore anything Roddenberry said about ranks. Can anybody actually envision Janice Rand going through astronaut school? Or any of the red shirts that get blown up, disintegrated, zapped, turned into duodecahedrons? > > The Great Bird of the Galaxy was and always will be full of horta shit. Begs the question of what the waste products of a silicon-based lifeform would be. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/66 "2020-04-30T23:30:37Z")
Sand? 40 grit sandpaper? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/67 "2020-04-30T23:32:37Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > That’s just the sort of thing that happens when you “boldly go where no man has gone before”. Although that was purportedly the Enterprise’s mission, I don’t think they were beyond known space in most of their missions. Often they were on rescue missions to known planets, ferrying diplomats about, or responding to mysterious distress calls. At least nine episodes involve visiting Earth, parallel Earths, or planets that mimic Earth time periods. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/68 "2020-04-30T23:42:37Z")
Plus the edge of the galaxy, and intergalactic space. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/69 "2020-05-01T00:20:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Sand? Sand is fish poop. Really! (At least that white stuff you find on island beaches.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/70 "2020-05-01T00:27:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Although that was purportedly the Enterprise’s mission, I don’t think they were beyond known space in most of their missions. Often they were on rescue missions to known planets, ferrying diplomats about, or responding to mysterious distress calls. At least nine episodes involve visiting Earth, parallel Earths, or planets that mimic Earth time periods. In Kirk’s era, 10% of the Galaxy was known. (_ **TMoST** _, P. 203) The Milky Way is at least 150,000 ly across, and that’s only in one dimension. You can bet there were still plenty of unexplored planets in that 10%. It’s an enormous volume of space. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/71 "2020-05-01T00:31:02Z")
So there is biological precedent! Silicon-based… so either tiny Pamela Anderson boobies or TI-85 calculators? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/72 "2020-05-01T00:35:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > So there is biological precedent! > > Silicon-based… so either tiny Pamela Anderson boobies or TI-85 calculators? I’ll be you could bounce quarters off Pam’s boobs. They sure have changed since she was Playmate of the Month! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/73 "2020-05-01T00:45:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > So there is biological precedent! > **[Absurd Creature of the Week: This Goofy Fish Poops Out White-Sand Beaches](https://www.wired.com/2014/08/absurd-creature-of-the-week-parrotfish/)** > > Ah, Hawaii. The resplendent luaus and awe-inspiring volcanoes. Tom Selleck and his mustache running around private-investigating stuff. The beautiful white-sand beaches made of fish poop. Oh, that’s right. Your precious Hawaiian beach vacation was... ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/74 "2020-05-01T12:36:16Z")
Kirk beamed two men into open space in And The Children Shall Lead. At the behest of children. No court-martial for that one? Though I’m not sure Starfleet ever got through that whole report before turning away in disgust. Though they probably had a good laugh at the Plato’s Stepchildren report. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/75 "2020-05-01T13:58:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > …And why should the Chief Engineer go on a scouting mission in any case? Sometimes they sent Chekov as well; why the hell would they send a Navigator? It’s not unreasonable that Kirk wanted a fair cross-section of crew expertise along with him. You never knew what you might need to have done while dirtside with a landing party. Chekov was, as noted above, being trained for eventual starship command, so it made sense that he would be given experience on lots of different kinds of missions. Starfleet also seems to have believed in pretty broad cross-training. Sulu was initially in Astrosciences (“Where No Man Has Gone Before”), wearing blue, while Lt. DeSalle served as a navigator (“The Squire of Gothos”), then later a scientist, carrying out an analysis of the flora and fauna of Omicron Ceti III (“This Side of Paradise”), and later still was assistant chief engineer (“Catspaw”). > [@orcenio](#): > > He should have been disciplined for abandoning post to lead every away mission on whatever hellscape they happened to stumble onto (with his first mate and ship doctor too!). It was not unusual during the Age of Sail, to which Roddenberry often likened Kirk’s era (Horatio Hornblower and all that), for the captain to personally lead landing parties. Capt. Cook died while doing so, as noted earlier, and although tragic, and there’s fair criticism as to his policy towards the Hawaiian islanders, no one thought he ought to have stayed aboard all the time. After Kirk’s time, Starfleet changed its policy and the first officer was expected to go in harm’s way much more often, in the captain’s stead. > [@Patch](#): > > There’s a great book _Redshirts_, by John Scalzi, where the red shirt crewmen start asking that very question. Highly recommended. Every Trekker should read _Redshirts_ and see _Galaxy Quest_! > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Not a recent policy at all; the Royal Navy court-martialed any captain who lost his ship, as far back as the 18th century, if Patrick O’Brian can be trusted (and he’s usually pretty accurate with the history). Jack Aubrey faces one after losing the _Sophie_ to the French; he’s cleared. > > According to Wikipedia, (which I trust less than I do POB), most navies hold a court-martial when a ship is lost, which is less about assigning blame and more to establish and record the circumstance of the incident. Exactly. See _The Bounty_ (Mel Gibson and Anthony Hopkins, 1984) for an interesting depiction of Capt. Bligh’s court-martial in 1790 for losing his command. He literally has to give the Admiralty board his sword at the beginning of the hearing, with the implication that he might not get it back. > [@VOW](#): > > … **TMoST** is one of my favorite books! My copy is so dog-eared and ratty! I loved the discussion on why the green makeup planned for Spock wasn’t photographing green… That was for Mina’s makeup (“Paint her greener!”) as an Orion slave girl, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/76 "2020-05-01T16:04:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > It’s not unreasonable that Kirk wanted a fair cross-section of crew expertise along with him. You never knew what you might need to have done while dirtside with a landing party. Chekov was, as noted above, being trained for eventual starship command, so it made sense that he would be given experience on lots of different kinds of missions. Of course, the real reason was because they had a limited cast and they wanted familiar faces in the landing parties. Scotty only occasionally went with a landing party, but IIRC there was no particular correlation with whether they were visiting a technological civilization or a barren wasteland. Trying to fanwank things that were clearly included for dramatic (or budgetary) reasons can be a fun exercise (as is complaining about them;)) but it’s ultimately futile. > [@](#): > > Starfleet also seems to have believed in pretty broad cross-training. Sulu was initially in Astrosciences (“Where No Man Has Gone Before”), wearing blue, while Lt. DeSalle served as a navigator (“The Squire of Gothos”), then later a scientist, carrying out an analysis of the flora and fauna of Omicron Ceti III (“This Side of Paradise”), and later still was assistant chief engineer (“Catspaw”). Again, these are just continuity errors. Rather famously, Uhura is wearing a gold (command) uniform in the first three episodes produced, switching to red (operations) for the rest of the series. In episodes where she does not appear, the communications post is usually occupied by someone wearing a red uniform, but occasionally blue or gold. You can go into contortions trying to explain why she was transferred to operations from command while carrying out exactly the same duties, or just assume that they thought she looked better in red.😉 > [@](#): > > Capt. Cook died while doing so, as noted earlier, and although tragic, and there’s fair criticism as to his policy towards the Hawaiian islanders, no one thought he ought to have stayed aboard all the time. Cook didn’t die leading a scouting party on an unfamiliar island, however. He was killed on his second visit to the Hawaiian Islands, when he tried to kidnap a local king in a rather stupid effort to get back a stolen boat. If anything, he died because of being incautious and thinking he knew more about the locals than he actually did. Magellan, too, didn’t die leading a scouting party. He got himself embroiled in local conflicts in the Philippines and was killed when he attacked another chief on behalf of another he had allied himself with. Both Cook and Magellan died while acting as military commanders, not as scouts. What usually happened during the Age of Exploration when a European ship first visited a new island was that the locals would swarm out to meet them in canoes. You could tell whether it was wise to land depending on whether they were waving spears or offering coconuts to trade. Of course, the Commanding Officer wasn’t expected to stay on board all the time. But I’ve read extensively on the Age of Exploration, and Commanding Officers didn’t make a practice of leading scouting parties in places where they didn’t know what the reception would be in advance. > [@](#): > > After Kirk’s time, Starfleet changed its policy and the first officer was expected to go in harm’s way much more often, in the captain’s stead. That’s one of the things where I thought The Next Generation made a great improvement on TOS. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/77 "2020-05-01T16:10:26Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > It was not unusual during the Age of Sail, to which Roddenberry often likened Kirk’s era (Horatio Hornblower and all that), for the captain to personally lead landing parties. Capt. Cook died while doing so, as noted earlier, and although tragic, and there’s fair criticism as to his policy towards the Hawaiian islanders, no one thought he ought to have stayed aboard all the time. After Kirk’s time, Starfleet changed its policy and the first officer was expected to go in harm’s way much more often, in the captain’s stead. Star Trek: Away and Orders: “The Starfleet system is made up of two separate but equal components. The Away Team that investigates strange new worlds, and the Command Team that determines what to do about them. These are their stories” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/78 "2020-05-01T16:54:21Z")
The high fatality rate is a function of how dangerous the star trek universe is and how much travelling and away missions they do (I have to say “travelling and away missions” because often deadly phenomena / species pose a threat in interstellar space, so it’s not just the away missions). Yes in real life if you were losing personnel left and right you’d be court-martialed. But in real life we’d also be much more cautious about interacting with anything, relying on probes for at least months before throwing humans in. If our patch of the universe turns out to have as many surprises as the Alpha quadrant, then we’ll likely proceed very cautiously indeed, at least sanctioned scientific and/or military vessels. So for me, the suspension of disbelief is over how much of a swashbuckling, Indiana Jones roadtrip space exploration is for the federation. Not that within that reality Kirk is still a respected captain. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/79 "2020-05-01T17:57:22Z")
Kirk went on away missions cause Spock is a crappy XO…think about it. He doesnt fully understand humans and the crew treat him with hostility and xenophobia. As late as the very last episode a security guard called him crazy and told him to leave. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840/80 "2020-05-01T20:18:35Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That was for Mina’s makeup (“Paint her greener!”) as an Orion slave girl, IIRC. Vina. According to Solow and Justman, the actress used in the tests was Majel Barrett, not Susan Oliver. Originally, Spock was “probably half Martian,” and they tested how he’s look with red makeup. The results were so bad, they did other tests before settling on yellow (which was explained by his having copper-based blood). The crew’s level of cross-training was apparent from the start. The color of the uniforms shouldn’t be taken too seriously, since personnel could be transferred from one branch to another within the ship as needs dictated. This would happen a lot with people like Chekov (and probably Stiles, Kyle, and DuSalle), who were being groomed for eventual command positions and needed a thorough knowledge of the ship’s operation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-t-kirk-never-courtmartialed-for-losing-crew/852840.md?page=5)