# James Taylor was not cool??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590 "2012-06-09T04:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/81 "2012-06-12T16:20:14Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > O.P. here (so I guess I’m in charge). Feel free to go off-topic. I’m interested in the whole “cool” thing. > > My favorite JT songs are _Wandering_ and _Lighthouse_, which has harmony by Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Were CS&N cool? > > I think that many great artists fall outside of the cool bucket. CS&N were excellent songwriters with killer harmonies; they were not “cool” until Neil Young joined up. Neil has always been cool–even on one of his weird tangents. America were Neil Young copycats who were not only uncool but _dreadful_. I like a bunch of “uncool” artists; to me, James Taylor was a late example of those Yankee folkies like Tom Rush or Tom Paxton. They really wrote some great tunes, even if their bluesier bits sounded a bit forced to a Texan. Tim Buckley was a starry-eyed folkie until his _Welcome to LA_ days–when he became hot, not cool… Once you’re out of high school, “cool” becomes less important. I like all the artists mentioned above (damn, time to crank up the turntable). Except for America, of course… ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/82 "2012-06-12T19:15:58Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > I’m reading a novel that takes place circa 1980. The main characters are 30-something educated suburban women, so they would’ve been in college in the late ‘60s or early ‘70s. > > The author seems to have a fixation with James Taylor and particularly with the idea that he was “not cool”. One thing the women characters bond over is that they love “Carolina in My Mind”, although they are embarrassed to admit it since otherwise James Taylor is so “not cool”. > > Seriously, James Taylor was not cool??? > > Has anyone here been exposed to that attitude in real life, or maybe even feel that way? He made Stepford Wife music. Still does. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Raven\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Raven\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Raven_1)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/83 "2012-06-12T20:50:00Z")
He did a hideous cable TV promotional commercial back in the 80’s. He was forever held in my contempt as a sellout after that. Prior to that, he was a whiney-ass junkie bitch. He and Carly Simon deserved each other, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/84 "2012-06-13T01:46:36Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > Very interesting theory. Now I have to see if I can come up with someone who is both unquestionably earnest and unquestionably cool. Miles Davis. Part of the problem agreeing here is that cool is such a cipher. The opposite of smarmy entertainers (Bobby Bitman) is earnest. The opposite of arrogant, prima donna hair bands (Ted Nugent, when he had hair) is nonchalance. Pick your cool. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/85 "2012-06-13T03:06:14Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > JT was the heartthrob of the Ivy League sorority girls and the boy-men who loved them. To everyone else he was the progenitor of a sickeningly cloying movement coming out of California in the early Seventies. Except he was an east coast guy. Its ironic that anyone who posts on these boards would think James Taylor is uncool. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/86 "2012-06-13T03:08:33Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Miles Davis. > > Part of the problem agreeing here is that cool is such a cipher. The opposite of smarmy entertainers (Bobby Bitman) is earnest. The opposite of arrogant, prima donna hair bands (Ted Nugent, when he had hair) is nonchalance. > > Pick your cool. Miles Davis stopped being cool around 1970; he was never interested in being cool anyway. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/87 "2012-06-13T03:20:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Miles Davis stopped being cool around 1970; Miles himself maybe. But his early records are still cool in 2012. > [@](#): > > …he was never interested in being cool anyway. I’d call that another definition of ‘cool’. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/88 "2012-06-13T05:13:01Z")
[QUOTE=Nunzio Tavulari] JT was the heartthrob of the Ivy League sorority girls and the boy-men who loved them. To everyone else he was the progenitor of a sickeningly cloying movement coming out of California in the early Seventies [/QUOTE] . > [@madsircool](#): > > Except he was an east coast guy. Its ironic that anyone who posts on these boards would think James Taylor is uncool. That’s because James Taylor was most often played on MOR/Adult Contemporary radio stations along with the artists who _were_ part of the “sickeningly cloying movement coming out of California” so it was easy to get him mixed up with them. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/89 "2012-06-13T07:38:52Z")
I cant knock him…I actually like the fifth dimension…lol…jt is good…but cool? Nah…btw if Lester bangs was so great how come he liked Lou reed… ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/90 "2012-06-13T11:39:19Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > Very interesting theory. Now I have to see if I can come up with someone who is both unquestionably earnest and unquestionably cool. > > Bono? I think you mean “tool”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/91 "2012-06-13T18:56:34Z")
> [@MsJinx](#): > > In the 70s, I thought there were different strata of coolness. In my various circles, James Taylor was cool compared to Carpenters type music among my high school friends, not cool in the groups that listened to Janis Joplin, Grateful Dead etc. Part of the criteria seemed to be whether they smoked pot or not (or it was assumed they did). Thanks for bringing up The Carpenters, because it illustrates the distinction as we perceived it. If nothing else, as a recording artist and “head”, JT had some cool points. In the early 1970s, you could still say that a guy who wore his hair long like that was making a statement to identify with the counterculture. I didn’t know anything about his personality or his early psychiatric issues, which I gather were significant (according to Wikipedia, he got himself admitted to McLean). In an interpersonal level, I imagine he would have been difficult to hang out with, but we didn’t know any of that–probably from the fact that we didn’t like the music, and so didn’t read much about him. Musical taste aside, he struck me at the time as sufficiently cool, in the sense of not being blatantly _ **un** _cool. Reading the various arguments and points being made in this thread, it’s remarkable how slippery the very notion of coolness can be. It’s almost impossible to define in terms that are not self referential, and many of the greatest icons of coolness achieved that by violating the prevailing coolness standards of their time. For instance, in the early 1960s the Beatles[sup]1[/sup] went way beyond others–even other pop musicians–in the length of their hair. By performing onstage and seeking to be the center of attention, rock and roll lead singers may violate the usual rule of manliness that you don’t intentionally dress or act out in a way that says “Look at me!”, but they’re almost always cool at least when they are in their prime. [sup]1[/sup]Speaking of the Beatles, the contrast between early members Stuart Sutcliffe and Pete Best seem to illustrate the distinction between [cool](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=TaGRGEqdtYIipM:&imgrefurl=http://frogstorm.com/%3Fp%3D3890&docid=vAM2uIcwTvNCeM&imgurl=http://frogstorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Stuart-Sutcliffe.jpg&w=500&h=638&ei=9-DYT8b6Cs242QWGtPSaDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=533&vpy=168&dur=747&hovh=254&hovw=199&tx=92&ty=122&sig=117236679836881735437&page=1&tbnh=160&tbnw=125&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:124&biw=1107&bih=567) and [uncool](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=IsYgU-3sHhjwYM:&imgrefurl=http://www.last.fm/music/Pete%2BBest/%2Bimages/31041109&docid=dV8Q9_VqR6TWZM&imgurl=http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/31041109/Pete%252BBest%252BPeteBest05.jpg&w=500&h=748&ei=ceHYT9r8FMnO2gW5qJyXDw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=723&sig=117236679836881735437&page=2&tbnh=178&tbnw=119&start=10&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:10,i:200&tx=76&ty=63&biw=1107&bih=567) respectively, at least as far as appearance goes. With regard to Stuart, it’s astonishing to think of a guy, even an artist and musician, wearing his hair that long in early 1962. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/92 "2012-06-13T19:20:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I feel it’s like that episode of Futurama where someone has to inform Fry that “Dave Mathews does not ‘rock’”. I believe that would be Nibbler. Who is definitely cool. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/93 "2012-06-13T20:52:53Z")
I can’t say I ever much cared for James Taylor’s music but a recent book called “Fire and Rain” by David Browne is interesting for the whole 1970 scene in the singer songwriter folks like Paul Simon, CSN and sometimes Y and the Beatles. But the women of my era LOVED the guy But Taylor did make one of the coolest movies ever in “Two Lane Blacktop” (alright, Warren Oates was the star but interesting that Taylor was cast strictly on his looks on a billboard as a hard edged guy) and he got to boink Joni Mitchell. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/94 "2012-06-14T01:15:12Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > I can’t say I ever much cared for James Taylor’s music but a recent book called “Fire and Rain” by David Browne is interesting for the whole 1970 scene in the singer songwriter folks like Paul Simon, CSN and sometimes Y and the Beatles. I almost always enjoy musicians’ bios or memoirs, and I don’t need to like the music at all. Lawrence Welk’s memoir was a great read. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/95 "2012-06-14T03:31:18Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > btw if Lester bangs was so great how come he liked Lou reed.. Lou Reed was cool. Just not after _Berlin._ ---
**Author:** ![Renifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@Renifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renifer)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/96 "2012-06-14T05:19:32Z")
He was cool enough to guest on The Simpsons (“Deep Space Homer”). /Love the song “Fire and Rain”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/97 "2012-06-14T09:36:10Z")
> [@MsJinx](#): > > In the 70s, I thought there were different strata of coolness. In my various circles, James Taylor was cool compared to Carpenters type music among my high school friends, not cool in the groups that listened to Janis Joplin, Grateful Dead etc. Part of the criteria seemed to be whether they smoked pot or not (or it was assumed they did). The interesting thing is that JT did have a brief moment of cool among the groups that listened to Janis, the Dead, Tull, etc. after “Fire and Rain” was released. It didn’t last very long; it was already over well before he released “You’ve Got A Friend,” but if it hadn’t been, that surely would have killed it dead. By the mid-1970s, Taylor was so far from cool that if you were a fan of his, you wouldn’t have been able to see cool through the Mt. Wilson telescope. FWIW, there’s a difference between his _life story_ being cool (sorta), and his _music_ being cool (excepting _Sweet Baby James_, not at all). ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/98 "2012-06-14T13:24:43Z")
I never thought his LIFE was cool at all! Pathetic loser who somehow made it huge and was endlessly rewarded in spite of his attempts to stay shit-faced for years at a time. Not cool at all. His music annoys me, too, it’s sheer nostalgia hearing it, and not in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590/99 "2012-06-14T13:31:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My wife played her James Taylor CDs while giving birth to our son. She says they calmed her down. > > Take that as you will. Well, if she’d been listening to Iron Maiden, he’d have shot out and hit the wall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-taylor-was-not-cool/624590.md?page=4)