# James Tiberius Kirk vs. Seven of Nine **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146 "2003-09-12T06:01:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/41 "2003-09-14T06:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*I didn’t forfeit. Your arguments have some value, but the main point is what you’re overlooking. > > The writers made the 7 of 9 character a fish out of water. She did not develope friendships. She avoided closeness with crew members. She exhibited an attitude toward them of conceit while internally she felt out of place. > > THAT’S HOW THEY WROTE HER. > > Extrapolating from that, you could go either way, sure. But the most _logical_ conclusion to come to is that she didn’t engage in ANY SORT of recreation with the crew, much less would she choose such an intimate act to “break the ice.” > \*\* Mein gott! Does NO ONE remember Seven’s actions in “Revulsion,” her second “regular” episode? [spoiler] Kim had an obvious crush on her, and near the end of the episode, he asked her to stop by his quarters to review some personell files, or something like that. Now, he had the lights dimmed, and I think even some “mood music” playing (I could be wrong about the music, it’s been a long time) He didn’t realy intend for anything to “happen” much beyond that point, but Seven quickly reads his biosigns, deducing that he has an “interest” in her. She asks if he’s in love with her, and then, point blank, if he wishes to copulate. And then, I friggin _quote_… 7:"All of these elaborate rituals of deception… I didn’t realize becoming human again would be such a challenge. Sexuality is particularly complex. As Borg, we had no need for seduction, no time for single-cell fertilization. We saw a species we wanted and we assimilated it… **Nevertheless, I’m willing to explore my humanity. Take off your clothes."** Kim: Uh… Seven… 7: Don’t be alarmed, I won’t _hurt_ you." [/spoiler] Now, forgive me if I’m being a neanderthal, but that seems a pretty clear enough statement of intention. (And Mr. Kim is either a class-A gentleman or a class-A weenie for “backing out.” Most likely he’s elements of both.) Granted, this was early on in Seven’s time on the series. And an early point in her character’s development. But still, ladies and gentlemen, the scene is _in_ the final episode. And, I might add, in a much later episode, “Human Error”… [spoiler]Seven gets a crush on Chakotay, and “experiments” with a relationship with the Commander by using holographic simulation of him. The relationship does, it is heavily implied, become sexual. [/spoiler] …and then, near the series finale, in an episode entitled, I believe, “Rick Berman Hates the Fans” ;), Seven and…Chakotay…actually _do_ become a couple. Now, even aside from the fact that _Janeway_ and Seven would have made a much more believable couple, I humbly submit that if lame-ass freakkin’…\*Chakotay\*…was able to win Seven’s heart, than James T. Kirk most _certainly_ would be able to win her over. And, thus, winning the Seven vs. Kirk battle. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/42 "2003-09-14T07:53:15Z")
It always kind of annoyed me that Seven and Tuvok never had sparks, if only purely intellectual ones. Seven: I find myself growing annoyed with the constant insistance by the Doctor and the Captain that I “rediscover my humanity”. Much of what I “discover” is disturbing and undesirable. Tuvok: Indeed. Humans feel safest when surrounded by those of similar attitude. During my years of security work for Starfleet, I have observed that humans try to encourage human traits in nonhumans, and even human criminals attempt to corrupt those around them. Frankly, I find myself growing fatigued at Mr. Parris’s and Neelix’s constant attempts to make me display empotion. Their behaviour is presumptuous and rude. Seven: From my readings of Federation history, I can’t see any compelling reason for me to automatically settle on Earth, simply becuase of a trivial genetic imperative. Do you think I might be more suited to the more disciplined and ordered culture of Vulcan? Tuvok: Possibly. Your intellectual skills and technical prowess would be of interest on Vulcan and there will be no attempt to force uncomfortable emotions from you. Seven: I’ll consider it. On a related note, if you feel the need to sate a _Pon Farr_ imperative, simply invite me to your quarters. It may comfort you to know that with me, there will be no lasting emotional repercussions, regardless of what occurs. Tuvok: Thank you. That is very civilized of you. Okay, I admit this scene wouldn’t be as compelling as seeing Torres in a sweaty undershirt, but all that sanctimonious crap about what it was to be human (when the definition was clearly limited to touch-feely California-esque New Age PC crap) got on my nerves. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/43 "2003-09-14T10:04:53Z")
Kudos, **Bryan**. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/44 "2003-09-14T13:42:40Z")
**Ranchoth** , I mentioned the Harry Kim episode in an earlier post. Do try to keep up. 😃 As for the Chakotay eps I saw, she still never did it with him. It was all wishful thinking. I don’t recall an episode where they actually did become a couple. Can you provide a real episode name? (Though I love the fake name you chose.) See, **Aes**? If wanted to make a point, you should do it like **Ranchoth** here, instead of acting like a 12 yr old (Did! Did not! Did, infinity, no take backs!) 😛 **Bryan** , your scene reminds me of Sam and Diane… Sam: “Are you as turned on as I am?” Diane: “More!” [smoochy woochy] ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/45 "2003-09-14T13:47:30Z")
Maybe she just masturbated a lot. That would actually make a lot of sense, now that **Ranch** has reminded us of her rich fantasy life. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/46 "2003-09-14T18:29:34Z")
And she wouldn’t even need to acquire a vibrator. She could simply extrude one from her palm. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/47 "2003-09-14T22:30:53Z")
**NCB** : As far as I can tell, they officially became a couple in [“Endgame part I,”](http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:9gkevx4_jmMJ:startrek.epguides.info/%3FID%3D606+endgame+voyager+chakotay&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) the first part of Voyager’s series finale. It was unclear if their relationship had become sexual by the end of “part II,” but the time-traveling Admiral Janeway had revealed that, in her (unaltered) timeline, Seven and Chakotay were _married_ at the time of Seven’s death a few years in the future. It is perhaps reasonable to assume that they’d consumated their relationship by that time. And yes, you DID mention that Seven/Harry “moment” in Revulsion, I might note that you didn’t mention that Seven actually went so far as saying “Nevertheless, I’m willing to explore my humanity…take off your clothes.” [good natured ribbing] But it’s a perfectly understandable omission on your part, considering what your position on the issue is…after all, like Twain said, “Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.” 😛 😃 😉 [/good natured ribbing] ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/48 "2003-09-15T00:53:45Z")
**Bryan Ekers** I believe you missed your calling… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/49 "2003-09-15T01:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FordPrefect \* > \*\ ***Bryan Ekers** I believe you missed your calling… \*\* Well, I have my fan fiction to take the edge off. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/50 "2003-09-15T01:38:46Z")
I love good natured ribbing! (The secret’s in the sauce.) I never saw the finale of VOY, **Ranchoth**. So, I find that very interesting. The Berman decided to make her human on the last freakin’ episode?! Arrggh! After all that crap they threw at us from her capture on… Kinda weird, too. What with the unrequited love angle they kept spewing at us about Cakotay and Bitch Captain. I still can’t say **Aes** was right, though, 'cause the argument wasn’t presented as neatly as yours, nor did he give any cites like you did. It was merely an unsupported guess. Sit on a Targ, Aes! 😛 I may have to rent a DVD if the last season of VOY is out yet. Because now that I look at the synopsis of the shows, I don’t recall a single one of them. Did I miss a whole season of VOY? :eek: Oh well ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/51 "2003-09-15T01:40:39Z")
At least you have that. Though, from what I hear you may have to put in a resume as a screen writer for Enterprise… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/52 "2003-09-17T02:44:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FordPrefect \* > \*\*At least you have that. Though, from what I hear you may have to put in a resume as a screen writer for Enterprise… \*\* Well, I dunno. One of my episodes would have been T’Pol lacing into Trip about all the bullshit he’s pulled (including an actual mutiny in one episode, when Archer was off the ship and the human crew, led by Trip, flatly refused to follow T’Pol’s orders, even though she is legally second-in-command). It wouldn’t exactly lend itself to the touchy-feely low-conflict crew Berman and Braga always seem to go for. I’d also like a conversation along the lines of: Tucker: So the Captain’s being held hostage (again). And you just want to leave him? T’Pol: The Minbaroo warriors have a strict ethical system. They won’t harm the Captain. In the meantime, we have a mission to perform. Tucker: Forget the damn mission! That’s our _Captain_ down there. T’Pol: I know. Prepare to break orbit. Tucker: Belay that! Look, lady, I know you think you’re smarter than the rest of us- T’Pol: I do, and I am. Tucker: Uh, well, sometimes you have to put aside the logic- T’Pol: And sometimes you get placed in the brig. Tucker: What I’m trying to say is- T’Pol: I know, because I’ve heard it from you before. Let _me_ say, in terms that you can understand, that I’ve saved your miserable lives on at least four occassions since this ship was deployed, and if you _still_ don’t trust me, I can only conclude that you are a danger to yourself and the crew. Mr. Malcolm, conduct Mr. Tucker to his quarters. Tucker: Hey! You can’t- T’Pol: Be quiet. (drops Tucker with a nerve pinch) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146/53 "2003-09-17T03:31:32Z")
That’s actually a pretty good premise. I like it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/james-tiberius-kirk-vs-seven-of-nine/201146.md?page=2)