# Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990 "2010-03-27T03:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/161 "2010-04-06T00:32:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > White bread/rice = a doughnut? Come on, seriously? This is kind of like when people would start posting that if you were drinking fruit juice, you might as well just drink soda and take Vitamin C tablets. Minus the sugar, yeah. True, white bread isn’t all that bad for you, but it’s also not at all good for you. It’s empty calories. It’s fine to throw some in as a treat or as an edible ‘container’, but it’s never going to count as something you can check off on a real food with nutrition list. I’m not saying white bread is evil, I’m just saying, it’s in some other category in some other universe from whole wheat, they are not interchangeable. Similar to how Monopoly money is pretty and very useful for playing games with, and nothing bad is going to happen to if you use it, but you can’t exactly exchange it for real goods in a real store either, even though they are both technically in the ‘money category’. And while fruit juice isn’t the same thing as soda + C, it’s also nowhere near as good as or interchangeable with actual fruit. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/162 "2010-04-06T00:58:52Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Height is also correlated with intelligence. > > Would you really choose to have such poor nutrition so as to stunt your growth in order to marginally reduce the risk of later-in-life cancers that are some of the most detectable and treatable forms of cancer we know about? What’s the extent of the correlation, what is the spread on IQ, what is the p value, and the R2 value? Then once we get all that, correlation is not necessarily causation. Seems like the Japanese and Chinese haven’t been nations of mouth breathing morons prior to their Western diets. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/163 "2010-04-06T02:23:59Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I also wanted to mention that I thought his use of drumsticks to be somewhat… yucky. While I agree that mass produced chicken nuggets aren’t the best, I think a nice breaded filet is much preferable to chicken on the bone… I prefer all my meats bone-in. And I think that drumsticks are pretty popular among children for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/164 "2010-04-06T05:06:07Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Loved his demonstration of how chicken nuggets are made (gross!) or his observation that the kids’ diet was completely beige. I was watching some other diet program recently and, while the leading lady is a sarcastic bitch, loved that moment when a girl who’d previously eaten nothing but takeaway looked at a salad and said “oh my gosh, it’s so _colorful_!” “Well, I’m glad you’re not colorblind, dear! Yes, it’s colorful, good food is _pretty_!” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/165 "2010-04-06T05:57:53Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I also wanted to mention that I thought his use of drumsticks to be somewhat… yucky. While I agree that mass produced chicken nuggets aren’t the best, I think a nice breaded filet is much preferable to chicken on the bone… You disagree with about 48M Spanish residents. KFC has been trying to make inroads for over ten years; as far as I can see, their stores are still empty. Actually, I went to try and check whether they have one store or two, and their [list of countries](http://www.kfc.com/global/) doesn’t even include Spain. Either they think we’re part of Romania, or they closed down. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/166 "2010-04-06T06:37:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > However, Western style diets are being linked to increases in cancer in Asia (colon and breast cancer in particular). Maybe I’m biased, but I’d rather be short and flat chested. I don’t think anyone’s claiming the western diet is perfect, or even better than the Japanese diet. Just that “the Japanese eat that” is a poor defense for stuff like white rice, since the Japanese diet has its own set of problems associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/167 "2010-04-06T11:47:21Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > While > Well yeah.. but that misses the point doesn’t it? If you have white bread or rice, you might as well have a donut. It’s fine to have some amount of crap food as a _supplement_ to the meal (we tend to call it “dessert”, we just can’t count it as part of the real food. Really? You think that nice, fresh loaf of crusty bread you get in France and Italy is desert? I guess pasta is desert too. It’s funny how in the US we are a bunch of fat pigs, yet the French and Italians seem to do just fine. The day we stop making sushi, paella, and risotto from white rice and no longer eat [this](https://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg/99149733/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg)is the day the food Nazis have won. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/168 "2010-04-06T12:23:53Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > I don’t think anyone’s claiming the western diet is perfect, or even better than the Japanese diet. Just that “the Japanese eat that” is a poor defense for stuff like white rice, since the Japanese diet has its own set of problems associated with it. Ellis Dee’s first post on the Japanese was specifically a comparison on the “health” of the Japanese diet compared to ours. I think one that contributes more to cancer is “unhealthier” than one that contributes to being short and lower intelligence, but that I’d want to know the stats on the intelligence thing. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/169 "2010-04-06T12:24:46Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Cite? Not in the usual sense of I don’t believe you, but in the sense of I’d like to get my hands on that 🙂 IOW is that online somewhere or is it in book form? Here’s the [Harvard School of Public Health site](http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/). Click on the pyramid and you get more details about how it was created, how the USDA pyramid was created, and even a nice quote to somewhat support your doughnut comparison. Doughnuts have fat, often transfat, which is a lot worse than refined starch alone, but here’s a cite for refined starch being akin to dessert: “The [USDA] guidelines suggest that it is fine to consume half of our grains as refined starch. That’s a shame, since refined starches, such as white bread and white rice, behave like sugar. They add empty calories, have adverse metabolic effects, and increase the risks of diabetes and heart disease.” Here are Willett’s books at [Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=walter+willett&x=0&y=0). I’ve found the information really useful. We overhauled our eating habits earlier this year. That’s not to say we never eat French bread, sweets, or even fast food, but our basic, day-to-day diet is centered around whole grains, fruits and vegetables, lean proteins, and healthy fats. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/170 "2010-04-06T12:44:25Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Really? You think that nice, fresh loaf of crusty bread you get in France and Italy is desert? I guess pasta is desert too. It’s funny how in the US we are a bunch of fat pigs, yet the French and Italians seem to do just fine. > > The day we stop making sushi, paella, and risotto from white rice and no longer eat [this](https://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg/99149733/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg)is the day the food Nazis have won. I love that stuff as much as you do, and there’s no way I’m removing it from my diet, especially since the local artisan baker has really started to come through with his baguettes and croissants. But I can’t honestly tell myself that it has a lot of nutritional value. I do limit how much I eat of it - yeah, I could eat a whole bowl full of the aged Basmati I use for my stir fries, but I limit myself to a half a cup. Same with the french bread, it’s wonderful and good and tastes like heaven itself, but I have a small sandwich with it, or a few slices with dinner, and that’s it. Italians and French do the same. Their portion sizes are tiny compared to ours. You ever see the “serving size” on a box of pasta? 2 ounces. I used to with regularity make 12 ounces for 2 people to eat. THAT’S why we’re fat compared to other countries. As with everything, white bread and rice is fine in moderation, but I think we all need to very much look at what “moderation” really is. For example, I see people complaining about the portion sizes on the back of food products, saying they don’t really reflect what people eat. Sure, they don’t. But the more I refine my own diet, the more I think the portion sizes are right in line with what we _should_ be eating, if we care about health/weight/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/171 "2010-04-06T12:48:37Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Sounds good to me… but to kids? He’s paired off against the school’s offering of a fajita. Herein lies the crux of the issue, I think. If we gave kids what sounded good to them every day, they’d eat brownies a la mode and potato chips for every meal. Our job as parents and those _in loco parentis_ is not to cater to the every whim of children–it’s to get them to self-sufficiency while ensuring that they are mentally and physically healthy. Giving them pizza and nuggets and burgers for lunch every day doesn’t really help with either of those things–obviously it’s a problem physically, and mentally it teaches the child that the world is there to make sure they have whatever the hell they want–which leads to an adult with a massive sense of entitlement. Oddly enough, of a BBQ chicken sandwich and a fajita, depending on the quality of the meat and what’s in the BBQ sauce, the bread, and the tortilla, I’d consider the fajita the healthier option. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/172 "2010-04-06T14:17:15Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Herein lies the crux of the issue, I think. If we gave kids what sounded good to them every day, they’d eat brownies a la mode and potato chips for every meal. Our job as parents and those _in loco parentis_ is not to cater to the every whim of children–it’s to get them to self-sufficiency while ensuring that they are mentally and physically healthy. Giving them pizza and nuggets and burgers for lunch every day doesn’t really help with either of those things–obviously it’s a problem physically, and mentally it teaches the child that the world is there to make sure they have whatever the hell they want–which leads to an adult with a massive sense of entitlement. My kids - particularly my son who is eleven - would drink nothing but coke if allowed. My kids are pretty good eaters, we seldom have chicken nuggets even IN our house. They eat a wide variety of vegetables, including green and orange ones. Fruits, fish, Chinese, Thai, Indian, Mexican food…not picky at all in the pizza, burgers, chicken nugguts and mac-n-cheese sense of a lot of kids. But give them choices and my son’s is Nachos for dinner with coke (which we do sometimes). My daughter wants hamburgers - with a white bun and kraft american cheese and french fries. So its our job to say no. He’s supposed to have ONE sweet a day - can be soda or candy or dessert, but there isn’t the “three cookies, candy bar, can of soda” day at our house (well, rules get blow at Easter, Christmas and Halloween). And to present them with a wide range of options. And to continually remind them that when they leave the house, they can have coke with every meal if they want, but if they do, they’ll gain the “Freshman Fifteen” and then some and we are hoping that saying no now will help them live lives of moderation when they need to make their own decisions. (And we talk like that in our house - which causes confusion when they parrot it back at school). ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/173 "2010-04-06T15:15:50Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > My kids - particularly my son who is eleven - would drink nothing but coke if allowed. That is really what it all boils down to. If given the “choice” of course kids are going to want nuggets, fries, and coke. Our brains (combined with a heavy dose of advertising) are hardwired to desire those things. It takes a lot of maturity to say, “I’d be better off just drinking a glass of water.” So it all spirals down from there. The schools feel they need to offer them food “they like.” Parents, when faced with a screaming child, offers them food “they like.” Problem is, that those kids grew up and are not raising the current generation. They were never taught the concept of moderation or balance, and in tern are unable to teach the concepts of moderation and balance. It’s not just food, look at the credit mess. Kids weren’t taught sound financial discipline. They grow up to raise kids without financial awareness. And now we have millions of people in foreclosure and “Kwik Ka$h” outlets on every corner. There is nothing inherently wrong with nuggets, fries, and coke. Nor is there anything wrong with using a credit card to buy something you want. It’s the breakdown in maturity that leads to that same meal (or it’s variation) 4 times a day, and several maxed out credit cards. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/174 "2010-04-06T17:12:18Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The schools feel they need to offer them food “they like.” Or the school thinks it can make money by offering the kids food that “they like”. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/175 "2010-04-06T20:15:41Z")
Or, I don’t know, perhaps they feel the need and responsiblity to actually get these children to eat a nutritious meal while they are in school for 7-8 hours a day, rather than languishing and not learning or performing at optimum. Maybe by serving a fajita, the are actively eliminating waste and serving a healthier meal through cognitive means? Ever thought of that? Be an interesting experiment to have two wastebaskets at that elementary school, one for the food leftovers from Jamie’s lunches, and one for the school’s lunches. At the end of lunch, weigh them and see which lunch program generates more waste, and through inferrence less tasty and preferable food… ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/176 "2010-04-06T20:51:14Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > I’ve found the information really useful. Thanks! > [@DanBlather](#): > > Really? You think that nice, fresh loaf of crusty bread you get in France and Italy is desert? Honestly, I don’t know how that bread is made so I can’t say. > [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > I guess pasta is desert too. Well, pasta that isn’t whole wheat is probably pretty lacking in nutrition too. I eat whole wheat pasta and I think it tastes fine. > [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > I guess pasta is desert too. I’ve seen plenty of French and Italians who are overweight, especially the latter, and plenty of underweight Americans. Let’s not grossly exaggerate, now. > [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > The day we stop making sushi, paella, and risotto from white rice and no longer eat [this](https://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg/99149733/FrenchPeasantBread.jpg)is the day the food Nazis have won. Who said anything like that? It’s fine to serve it, even to kids, in moderation. It just doesn’t count as a grain for the purposes of a nutritional checklist. In the same way as meat doesn’t count as a fruit for the purposes of a checklist, and ketchup doesn’t count as a vegetable. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/177 "2010-04-06T23:57:24Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > That seems somewhat skewed the way that you phrased it. Have a cite for that? I saw it many years ago on one of the Discovery Channels back before they became wall to wall reality shows. A quick google reveals an avalanche of vegetarian propaganda, but further searching points to [Paranthropus](http://www.maropeng.co.za/index.php/exhibition_guide/sterkfontein/paranthropus/): > [@](#): > > Paranthropus robustus lived in the Cradle of Humankind from about 2.5-million to 1-million years ago. It had huge jaws for chewing tough vegetation like roots and tubers. It was not a direct ancestor of humankind, but an ancient cousin. > […] > Paranthropus was well adapted to a specialised, mainly vegetarian, diet. As environmental conditions changed it therefore may have been unable to adapt to changes in the available food. Or it may have been wiped out by a species-specific disease. Its decline to extinction also may have been hastened by the presence of a competitor, the early species of the genus Homo.Homo habilis, one of the first hominids in the Homo lineage, was more adaptable and omnivorous, and developed the facility to make stone tools. Homo habilis survived, while Paranthropus, which was not a tool-maker, became extinct about 1-million years ago. Two competing proto-human species, one an omnivore and the other a vegetarian. The vegetarians had a harder time adapting and never learned to make tools. The conclusion seems pretty clear to me, but I’m not willing to go the wall on it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/178 "2010-04-07T00:16:11Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Or, I don’t know, perhaps they feel the need and responsiblity to actually get these children to eat a nutritious meal while they are in school for 7-8 hours a day, rather than languishing and not learning or performing at optimum. Maybe by serving a fajita, the are actively eliminating waste and serving a healthier meal through cognitive means? Ever thought of that? See, if Jamie really knew what he was doing and wanted to compete he would simply serve a BBQ Chicken sandwich and “Cowboy Beans” (instead of refried beans), next to that fajita. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/179 "2010-04-07T00:33:08Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That is really what it all boils down to. If given the “choice” of course kids are going to want nuggets, fries, and coke. For many, _many_ years, my family would sit down to a wonderful holiday meal cooked by my grandmother or aunt, with challah, brisket, salad, turkey, casserole, etc. etc. Wonderful food. My younger cousin? Well, my aunt had swung by McD’s before heading over to grandma’s to get him fries and nuggets, which he ate at the table, and if you even suggested he try some real food he freaked. Kid’s lucky he’s got his dad’s beanpole metabolism or he’d be fatter than me. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990/180 "2010-04-07T00:34:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The conclusion seems pretty clear to me, but I’m not willing to go the wall on it or anything. I’m not really seeing the part where “better nutrition from meat led to bigger brains” but thanks for the info you did find. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamie-olivers-food-revolution/533990.md?page=10)