# JamieMcGarry - Wheel yourself on down here **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050 "2011-08-25T16:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/321 "2011-08-30T01:51:50Z")
Oh, could be. It would be fitting if they were related. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/322 "2011-08-30T02:14:24Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > The fact that he sued the doctor after his life was saved seems very petty to me (of course my feelings on this are coloured by the general impressions of douchebaggery I get from the guy). Well, FWIW I suppose that a man of 20 would have his career options and earning potential severely limited by going from being able bodied to being in a wheel chair. Not to say that you can’t earn a living in a wheel chair, because obviously you can; however, not having use of your legs would eliminate a large selection of potential careers. I imagine (no cite, pure WAG on my part) that insurance companies factor people such as **Jamie** into the rates they charge - that is, people who don’t actually have a legitimate claim of malpractice but would create very poor optics for a jury due to their circumstances. The insurer offers a sum of money to acknowledge that the person’s career options are now limited due to the actions of their insured doctor (ignoring the fact that a dead person has even less career options) and basically just pays the person to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/323 "2011-08-30T02:19:56Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Thank you for all this - it was pretty much what I expected, but it’s good to hear from someone who seems to know what they’re talking about. > > People keep saying things like “he didn’t deserve to end up disabled” or “it was just a youthful mistake”, but that’s not the point. Of course he didn’t ‘deserve’ it, and of course we all got away with things in our youth that could have had extremely dire consequences, but none of that means jack shit with regard to malpractice. Of course it’s possible that there really was medical malpractice, but I’m much more inclined to believe that it was just a shitty situation with hard choices for the surgeon and a range of potentially negative outcomes. The fact that he sued the doctor after his life was saved seems very petty to me (of course my feelings on this are coloured by the general impressions of douchebaggery I get from the guy). > In other news - I was thinking earlier today that Jamie’s idea of activism is similar to organizations like Greenpeace and PETA. Ultimately they all have noble goals in mind, but the abrasive and sometimes abusive way they choose to pursue them is completely counterproductive. I am all for environmentalism and I love animals, but after watching a couple of Greenpeace or PETA videos I seriously want to toss litter about willy-nilly and stab a cute little lamb in the eye with a fork. Jamie - your vigilantism will end up having the same effect. Clearly you are incapable of seeing it, but you are actually damaging the very cause you claim to hold dear. After an altercation with you, a person is much more likely to look at another disabled person and think “that guy is probably a jackass with a chip on his shoulder who will freak out if I try to engage him - better avoid that”. After hearing about your frivolous lawsuiting, other businesses are going to think “catering to the handicapped is clearly just going to lead to complaints that we’re not doing enough - better to ignore that market”. Your actions are having the net effect of making life worse for the handicapped. Is that really what you want? I understand that we only have these posts with which to judge one another here on this board. I also take responsibility (at least partially) for creating the image of myself that has caused the overall opinion of me to be formed. My intentions are self-motivated _and_ selfless at the same time. I’ve had to fight for every single thing I have achieved or done, not just because my body is physically handicapped, but because my handicap puts me in a social box. That box is the existence our world has meted out for a person in a wheelchair; socially, culturally, architecturally, etc. We in wheelchairs are met with a world that basically tells us, “This is our world, everything has been done to the utmost extent to accomodate you in your wheelchair.” “Now accept it with good graces because it is what it is.” When someone in a chair actually _rejects_ some aspect of this notion, they are met with hostility or anger from the world at large. And called “entitled” or “angrY”. There is a certain, I don’t know, _thing_, that can happen to a person after a spinal cord injury. I’ve seen it so many times, personally, in other people. I’ve even felt the struggle within myself. It’s when, after being “beaten down” by the world for so long; after being told(maybe not is so many words) not to speak up about issues they _know deep down_ are not right; after being told not to complain about things because, “this is the best we can do”; a person can internalize this mindset. Internalize this mindset and live by this mindset. For example, a quadraplegic man I somewhat know recently told me a story (via facebook). He had gone out somewhere (to a shopping mall I believe) and parked his modified, handicapped-accessible van (with a lift) in the handicapped parking spot. When he returned a couple hours later, he saw a (non-handicapped) car illegally parked on the blue lines close to his van, making it impossible for him to access his lift to get him into the van. He was stuck outside in the parking lot. What did he do? He waited. For four hours. He waited for four hours for the owner of the illegally parked car to come and move it so he could finally leave. He didn’t call police, he didn’t call mall security, he waited. He didn’t want to cause a scene or “make any trouble”. I had to bite my lip listening to this. And it’s just an example. Being an advocate and activist for the lives and rights of the disabled community was never something that I sought. It is something that my life is naturally growing into. Perhaps I can take a bit of silver lining from the vitriolic negativity that has poisoned so much of my time here at the SDMB. I can take it as time which helped me improve my abilities. If I do suck terribly as an activist, hey, that means I can only get better. The way that I see it is I am filling a role that _ **needs** _ filling. I can do no other thing than do my best to live up to the ideals that I believe in. And, for the most part, I _do_ do my best. And of course I fuck up mightily from time to time along the way. Fuck my life is hard. But I’d _never_ trade it with anyone, not for a second. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/324 "2011-08-30T02:24:32Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I was a little shocked to hear that, too - **Jamie** is not the first person I’ve heard say that their wheelchair is like an extension of their body. Of course there are potential problems with it, but not insurmountable ones. **Qadgop** didn’t say you had to give up your wheelchair, just that it had to be inspected, and made sure that it was safe, and if not, you would be provided one. You don’t want someone breaking off a handle and using it as a shank or something like that. It’s prison, dude. They’ll provide for your needs, but they’re not exactly going to worry about your “dignity” or your every whim. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/325 "2011-08-30T02:25:19Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > For example, a quadraplegic man I somewhat know recently told me a story (via facebook). He had gone out somewhere (to a shopping mall I believe) and parked his modified, handicapped-accessible van (with a lift) in the handicapped parking spot. When he returned a couple hours later, he saw a (non-handicapped) car illegally parked on the blue lines close to his van, making it impossible for him to access his lift to get him into the van. > > He was stuck outside in the parking lot. What did he do? He waited. For four hours. He waited for four hours for the owner of the illegally parked car to come and move it so he could finally leave. He didn’t call police, he didn’t call mall security, he waited. He didn’t want to cause a scene or “make any trouble”. I had to bite my lip listening to this. And it’s just an example. That story would be moving, if I for one second believed a word of it. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/326 "2011-08-30T02:29:59Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Jamie, what do you do for a living? Just curious. He has said before that he manages the investments he made with his settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/327 "2011-08-30T02:30:35Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > That story would be moving, if I for one second believed a word of it. That’s the thing that sucks. When your mind’s made up, your mind’s made up. You are closed off to the possibility that your original opinion may have been formed with insufficient data. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/328 "2011-08-30T02:37:08Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > That’s the thing that sucks. When your mind’s made up, your mind’s made up. You are closed off to the possibility that your original opinion may have been formed with insufficient data. I do not believe that a handicapped person waited for four hours without calling the police or mall security. Nor should you. What’s the rest of the story? When the person illegally blocking the handicap spot finally showed up, what happened then? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/329 "2011-08-30T02:38:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Qadgop** didn’t say you had to give up your wheelchair, just that it had to be inspected, and made sure that it was safe, and if not, you would be provided one. You don’t want someone breaking off a handle and using it as a shank or something like that. > > It’s prison, dude. They’ll provide for your needs, but they’re not exactly going to worry about your “dignity” or your every whim. Well dude, I was shocked at the idea of the prison actually taking the person’s personal chair and replacing it with a prison chair (ooh that sounds evil), not at it getting inspected. It’s not about “whims”. It’s about ones’ body. I’t’d be like, if a prisoner had a prosthetic leg, the prison removing it and replacing it with a peg. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/330 "2011-08-30T02:39:39Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I do not believe that a handicapped person waited for four hours without calling the police or mall security. Nor should you. > > What’s the rest of the story? When the person illegally blocking the handicap spot finally showed up, what happened then? Why should I waste my time if you think it’s all bullshit? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/331 "2011-08-30T02:46:28Z")
See Jamie, this is your trump card. And I am positive that’s why you get away with so much, you can pull it out anytime someone says or does something you don’t think is fair; “oh but I’m in a wheelchair, I’m such a victim and downtrodden and all I’m doing is trying to help my fellow handicapped victims”. But really you’re just kind of a jerk. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I understand that we only have these posts with which to judge one another here on this board. I also take responsibility (at least partially) for creating the image of myself that has caused the overall opinion of me to be formed. My intentions are self-motivated _and_ selfless at the same time. > > I’ve had to fight for every single thing I have achieved or done, not just because my body is physically handicapped, but because my handicap puts me in a social box. That box is the existence our world has meted out for a person in a wheelchair; socially, culturally, architecturally, etc. We in wheelchairs are met with a world that basically tells us, “This is our world, everything has been done to the utmost extent to accomodate you in your wheelchair.” “Now accept it with good graces because it is what it is.” When someone in a chair actually _rejects_ some aspect of this notion, they are met with hostility or anger from the world at large. And called “entitled” or “angrY”. > > There is a certain, I don’t know, _thing_, that can happen to a person after a spinal cord injury. I’ve seen it so many times, personally, in other people. I’ve even felt the struggle within myself. It’s when, after being “beaten down” by the world for so long; after being told(maybe not is so many words) not to speak up about issues they _know deep down_ are not right; after being told not to complain about things because, “this is the best we can do”; a person can internalize this mindset. Internalize this mindset and live by this mindset. > > For example, a quadraplegic man I somewhat know recently told me a story (via facebook). He had gone out somewhere (to a shopping mall I believe) and parked his modified, handicapped-accessible van (with a lift) in the handicapped parking spot. When he returned a couple hours later, he saw a (non-handicapped) car illegally parked on the blue lines close to his van, making it impossible for him to access his lift to get him into the van. > > He was stuck outside in the parking lot. What did he do? He waited. For four hours. He waited for four hours for the owner of the illegally parked car to come and move it so he could finally leave. He didn’t call police, he didn’t call mall security, he waited. He didn’t want to cause a scene or “make any trouble”. I had to bite my lip listening to this. And it’s just an example. > > Being an advocate and activist for the lives and rights of the disabled community was never something that I sought. It is something that my life is naturally growing into. Perhaps I can take a bit of silver lining from the vitriolic negativity that has poisoned so much of my time here at the SDMB. I can take it as time which helped me improve my abilities. If I do suck terribly as an activist, hey, that means I can only get better. The way that I see it is I am filling a role that _ **needs** _ filling. I can do no other thing than do my best to live up to the ideals that I believe in. And, for the most part, I _do_ do my best. And of course I fuck up mightily from time to time along the way. Fuck my life is hard. But I’d _never_ trade it with anyone, not for a second. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/332 "2011-08-30T02:46:48Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Why should I waste my time if you think it’s all bullshit? 😕 Uh-huh. Why am I not surprised? I’m not surprised because it’s bullshit; either the person who told you the story was bullshitting, or you’re bullshitting. I know where my money is. I’ll also add, re going to prison and having the extension of your body replaced: do you expect your current chair to last you the remainder of your life? Your chair is going to be replaced from time to time, and going to prison is certainly, in plain sense, one of those times. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/333 "2011-08-30T02:52:32Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Uh-huh. Why am I not surprised? I’m not surprised because it’s bullshit; either the person who told you the story was bullshitting, or you’re bullshitting. I know where my money is. > > I’ll also add, re going to prison and having the extension of your body replaced: do you expect your current chair to last you the remainder of your life? Your chair is going to be replaced from time to time, and going to prison is certainly, in plain sense, one of those times. For one, I didn’t realize we were discussing life sentences.:rolleyes: Two, if and when I needed to get my chair replaced in prison, why does that necesitate it being replaced with something that is not specifically tailored and ordered for myself? _That_ is what would be similar to the original dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/334 "2011-08-30T02:56:11Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > See Jamie, this is your trump card. And I am positive that’s why you get away with so much, you can pull it out anytime someone says or does something you don’t think is fair; “oh but I’m in a wheelchair, I’m such a victim and downtrodden and all I’m doing is trying to help my fellow handicapped victims”. > > But really you’re just kind of a jerk. If that is what you get out of what I wrote, so be it. The last thing I want to be seen as is _any_ sort of victim. I am trying to make amends with the people of this board, trying to do what I can to show that I am not a one-dimensional asshole. In the end, it doesn’t really matter if I convince anyone or not. But I’d like to. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/335 "2011-08-30T03:04:56Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Being an advocate and activist for the lives and rights of the disabled community was never something that I sought. It is something that my life is naturally growing into. You’re not listening to what I’m saying. I didn’t say that advocating for the disabled was pointless or stupid or anything less than valid. I said that the way you choose to go about this ‘advocating’ is actually resulting in a negative reaction. The reaction is not because we think disabled people should ‘know their place’, it’s not because we don’t care about the handicapped, and it’s not because we think a fictional friend of yours should wait 4 hours for someone to more their car. The negative reaction is because you choose to act like an asshole and create problems where problems don’t exist. An experience with you is going to change some peoples opinions about the handicapped. And not in a good way. Don’t you get that? Oh, and also, if you want us to believe this: > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > The last thing I want to be seen as is _any_ sort of victim. it’s probably best not to pull out this: > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Fuck my life is hard. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/336 "2011-08-30T03:07:26Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > You’re not listening to what I’m saying. I didn’t say that advocating for the disabled was pointless or stupid or anything less than valid. I said that the way you choose to go about this ‘advocating’ is actually resulting in a negative reaction. The reaction is not because we think disabled people should ‘know their place’, it’s not because we don’t care about the handicapped, and it’s not because we think a fictional friend of yours should wait 4 hours for someone to more their car. The negative reaction is because you choose to act like an asshole and create problems where problems don’t exist. > > An experience with you is going to change some peoples opinions about the handicapped. And not in a good way. Don’t you get that? > > Oh, and also, if you want us to believe this: > > it’s probably best not to pull out this: True, perhaps I shouldn’t have said that but I meant it in the opposite way of the way you are characterizing it now. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/337 "2011-08-30T03:10:13Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > For one, I didn’t realize we were discussing life sentences.:rolleyes: We’re not, as far as I know. Even if you never go to prison, your chair is going to have to be replaced at some point along the way. Most likely, given your youth, more than once. If you did go to prison, and it was deemed that you current chair was, for whatever reason, unsuitable for prison, they would attempt to replace it with one that fit you. Would it have all the bells and whistles and the racing stripes down the side that you have on your current one? Of course not. But it would be adequate, even if it’s not what you think you deserve. But we’ve been down that path before . . . ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/338 "2011-08-30T03:13:06Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > If that is what you get out of what I wrote, so be it. The last thing I want to be seen as is _any_ sort of victim. I am trying to make amends with the people of this board, trying to do what I can to show that I am not a one-dimensional asshole. In the end, it doesn’t really matter if I convince anyone or not. But I’d like to. I am perfectly willing to accept that you want to change your image as “angry wheelchair guy” and I know that people on this board happily give posters second chances. Here are some helpful tips: When someone says something that you disagree with, instead of saying “Huh?? do you read AT ALL??” Try this occasionally: “Hmm, interesting, I’ve never really thought about it that way. You might have a point.” Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/339 "2011-08-30T03:25:13Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > I am perfectly willing to accept that you want to change your image as “angry wheelchair guy” and I know that people on this board happily give posters second chances. > > Here are some helpful tips: > > When someone says something that you disagree with, instead of saying “Huh?? do you read AT ALL??” > > Try this occasionally: > > “Hmm, interesting, I’ve never really thought about it that way. You might have a point.” > > Good luck! I’ll happily embrace your suggestion. Thank you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/340 "2011-08-30T03:26:10Z")
Yeah, you’re just not going to get much if any actual support - or convince anyone - in a thread like this, **jamie,** whether everyone really is convinced you’re an asshole or not. I would imagine that there’s probably a decent number of people who have read this thread and it just made them uncomfortable because of the way some people sense blood in the water and go fucking nuts once there’s a critical mass of them around. A lot of people probably don’t even read all the way through before just getting the fuck out because it makes them feel dirty. The only people who are going to be motivated to stick around after 300 posts are the people who \*really \*don’t like the way you come off and the people who use the first group as cover to just act like playground bullies once the target’s been identified – holy shit, we can make fun of him for being in a _wheelchair_ and he’ll still be the bad guy?! It’s kind of like a sport for people with emotional problems. Well, another one. So you’re preaching right now to a choir made up of all the people who are most irritated by you, plus the amateur internet Thersiteses who don’t actually give a shit what you actually have or haven’t done. You’re never going to get through to the first group while the second group’s around. If you want to have a different conversation, you’re going to have to have it somewhere that isn’t this thread. And, you know, be a little open-minded about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050.md?page=18)