# JamieMcGarry - Wheel yourself on down here **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050 "2011-08-25T16:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/401 "2011-08-30T18:48:10Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I didn’t change my story. I meant there were “architechtural barriers” preventing me from being able to use the machine. I was playing your game. I meant “barriers” in the sense that the machine was designed in a way that didn’t allow me to physically use it properly. I would consider architechtural design flaws to be a “barrier” to handicap access. Dog, seriously. I know its fun to imagine what the law _might_ mean if you were elected God of the Universe, but it is actually really easy to find out what the law really _does_ mean, here in our shared reality. Given that, it is both disingenuous and assholish to keep pretending, without any basis in fact, that the club is in violation of any law. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/402 "2011-08-30T18:53:54Z")
And one more thing that I haven’t clarified very well. This lat pulldown machine is the _only_ piece of equipment that I can’t use in the gym. However, it is by _no_ means the only non-handicap accessible piece of equipment there. I can make do with plenty that is not technically “handicap accessible”. I do everyday, all the time. My issue with HHFC is their lack of _any_ real handicap accessible workout equipment. Not for _ **me** _, because as I’ve said, I can make do with most of what is offered (with the exception of their lat equipment). It’s for the wheelchair-bound (and disabled at large) population as a whole. Now, as I’ve said _many_ times before, I am not asking Hurley to equip their gym with a piece of accessible equipment for every piece of regular equipment they have. That is unrealistic and silly. What could be a perfect, and reasonable, solution is to have _ **one** _ high quality, versatile, multi-use, adjustable pulley/cable trainer-machine, which could be used for just about every exercise which does not have an accessible machine available for the disabled. This would _ **include** _ lat pulldowns. This is what I meant before when I said “no wheelchair bound person can get a proper physical fitness workout session at HHFC”. A full, proper physical fitness session is more than simply cardiovascular exercise (someone mentioned that _most_ disabled folks would be satisfied with just an arm-bike workout). Especially for para/quadraplegics, for whom strength training is vitally important and has real-world implications for their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/403 "2011-08-30T19:07:37Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I didn’t change my story. I meant there were “architechtural barriers” preventing me from being able to use the machine. I was playing your game. I meant “barriers” in the sense that the machine was designed in a way that didn’t allow me to physically use it properly. I would consider architechtural design flaws to be a “barrier” to handicap access. See that’s the problem here, when it comes to the law you don’t get to decide what you think something means. You have to look it up and use the definitions as set by the people who wrote the law. I mentioned to you earlier in one of the threads that …wait, I bet I can find it… Here it is: > [@Slipped under the radar?? \[About me getting kicked out of gym\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slipped-under-the-radar-about-me-getting-kicked-out-of-gym/593872/124): > > Jaime, I honestly suggest you start reading the law and picking through the ADA site. It’s not that difficult, every statute website that I’ve looked through typically has a search bar that _usually_ works pretty well. You just have to make sure you understand what you’re reading and always go back to the beginning of each section and understand the definitions before you start making assumptions about what words mean. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/404 "2011-08-30T19:13:44Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > See that’s the problem here, when it comes to the law you don’t get to decide what you think something means. You have to look it up and use the definitions as set by the people who wrote the law. I mentioned to you earlier in one of the threads that …wait, I bet I can find it… > Here it is: Ok, in the post where I mentioned “barriers” to the equipment, I erred. It was a semantic error. I shouldn’t have used such a term. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/405 "2011-08-30T19:18:50Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And one more thing that I haven’t clarified very well. This lat pulldown machine is the _only_ piece of equipment that I can’t use in the gym. However, it is by _no_ means the only non-handicap accessible piece of equipment there. I can make do with plenty that is not technically “handicap accessible”. I do everyday, all the time. So, they have one piece of machinery that you can’t use, and you go crying to the DOJ…I’d kick you out of my gym too. > [@](#): > > My issue with HHFC is their lack of _any_ real handicap accessible workout equipment. Not for _ **me** _, because as I’ve said, I can make do with most of what is offered (with the exception of their lat equipment). It’s for the wheelchair-bound (and disabled at large) population as a whole. Did you ask the other disabled people about this? Maybe they don’t need your help ‘fighting the good fight’. Maybe they’re perfectly happy with the status quo. I’ll bet a lot of people would prefer you didn’t put words in their mouth. > [@](#): > > Now, as I’ve said _many_ times before, I am not asking Hurley to equip their gym with a piece of accessible equipment for every piece of regular equipment they have. That is unrealistic and silly. What could be a perfect, and reasonable, solution is to have _ **one** _ high quality, versatile, multi-use, adjustable pulley/cable trainer-machine, which could be used for just about every exercise which does not have an accessible machine available for the disabled. This would _ **include** _ lat pulldowns. So, ultimately, what this comes down to, is that you want them to buy something for you. You freely admit that they can’t buy something for everyone, but _this_…this would be perfect for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/406 "2011-08-30T19:30:14Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So, they have one piece of machinery that you can’t use, and you go crying to the DOJ…I’d kick you out of my gym too. > Did you ask the other disabled people about this? Maybe they don’t need your help ‘fighting the good fight’. Maybe they’re perfectly happy with the status quo. I’ll bet a lot of people would prefer you didn’t put words in their mouth. > So, ultimately, what this comes down to, is that you want them to buy something for you. You freely admit that they can’t buy something for everyone, but _this_…this would be perfect for you. No, something for me and all the other disabled individuals using the facilities. Why is this so hard for you to accept? I never admitted they can’t buy something for everyone, you are reading my words to fit _your_ argument. I _said_ that one high quality, multi-use trainer-machine could meet the need OF everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/407 "2011-08-30T19:30:21Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Ok, in the post where I mentioned “barriers” to the equipment, I erred. It was a semantic error. I shouldn’t have used such a term. No, and it’s the crux of the problem. If architectural barriers included design flaws, your case might have merit, but it doesn’t include it…I’m willing to bet you’d never heard the term ‘architectural barriers’ before it was mentioned in one of these threads because I don’t think you read the Safe Harbor Act. Not only that, I think when you saw it, you found a way to make it apply to your situation and ran with it…like we weren’t going to call you on it. I think you just googled for some ADA law that included exercise machines assumed that meant they violated it. You’ve shown over and over that you did very little research before you got the DOJ involved and you seem to ignore every link and post we give to you. I’ve learned more about the ADA laws regarding your case against the health club in the last few days (and I honestly thank you for that, I like learning about that kind of stuff). You wrote to the DOJ, you accused the health club of breaking the law…_You should be schooling us in ADA law_, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/408 "2011-08-30T19:30:21Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I didn’t change my story. I meant there were “architechtural barriers” preventing me from being able to use the machine. I was playing your game. I meant “barriers” in the sense that the machine was designed in a way that didn’t allow me to physically use it properly. I would consider architechtural design flaws to be a “barrier” to handicap access. This is disingenuous. The law intends “architectural barriers” to mean the design of the workout _room_, not the design of the individual machine. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/409 "2011-08-30T19:32:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is disingenuous. The law intends “architectural barriers” to mean the design of the workout _room_, not the design of the individual machine. I admitted error on this already. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/410 "2011-08-30T19:36:27Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, something for me and all the other disabled individuals using the facilities. Why is this so hard for you to accept? I never admitted they can’t buy something for everyone, you are reading my words to fit _your_ argument. I _said_ that one high quality, multi-use trainer-machine could meet the need OF everyone. What about the guy with only one arm? Or the person with no legs below the waist? They won’t get to use it. According to the precedent you’re attempting to set, the health club will have to purchase another machine that can work out their lats as well. Here’s my question from earlier, I think it applies > [@](#): > > Suppose they get the machine Jamie wants and someone else with a different disability can’t use it but still wants to work out their lats. So they go home, do some research, find a machine that will and work and demand the club purchases it… Jamie, do you think the gym should be required to purchase a third lat machine for this person that can’t use the standard one or the one that they got for you? > > If you feel they should, I’d like to know why, it sets an interesting (and expensive) precedent. > If you feel they shouldn’t, why do you think they should be required to get the one you want? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/411 "2011-08-30T19:39:46Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > What about the guy with only one arm? Or the person with no legs below the waist? They won’t get to use it. According to the precedent you’re attempting to set, the health club will have to purchase another machine that can work out their lats as well. > > Here’s my question from earlier, I think it applies You’re actually wrong, they most certainly would be able to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/412 "2011-08-30T19:40:12Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I admitted error on this already. You called it a “semantic distinction” without acknowledging that your error, which you choose to dismiss as semantic, is actually the incredibly shaky foundation upon which both your legal action and righteous indignation rest. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/413 "2011-08-30T19:44:09Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > You’re actually wrong, they most certainly would be able to use it. For the purpose of the argument, pick a disability that wouldn’t allow someone to use either of the lat machines referenced to. That’s all I was driving at. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/414 "2011-08-30T19:50:21Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > For the purpose of the argument, pick a disability that wouldn’t allow someone to use either of the lat machines referenced to. That’s all I was driving at. That’s what I was driving at as well, what sort of disability would you imagine would prevent someone from being able to access and use a free-standing, adjustable pulley-cable trainer system but at the same time _bring_ the person into the gym? That is what is so good and useful about equipment such as what I am describing; it is so _versatile_ and _accessible_ to virtually everyone, from all walks of life. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/415 "2011-08-30T20:30:28Z")
“But wait… there’s _MORE_!” ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/416 "2011-08-30T20:38:27Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “But wait… there’s _MORE_!” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/417 "2011-08-30T20:39:25Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Isn’t Whale Wars related to Greenpeace? Maybe not. Whale Wars is actually done by the guys in the Sea Shepherd Society. Although Seas Shepherd founder/chief Whale Wars blowhard Paul Watson was a former member of the board of directors of Greenpeace. He was either (a) kicked off the board for advocating actions that would violate their policy of non-violence (according to Greenpeace) or (b) quit because Greenpeace was a bunch of ineffective wusses (according to Watson). Anyway, back to tonight’s episode of Wheelchair Wars, already in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/418 "2011-08-30T20:49:22Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Anyway, back to tonight’s episode of Wheelchair Wars, already in progress. Sort of ready for this show to be canceled. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/419 "2011-08-30T20:50:02Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “But wait… there’s _MORE_!” I laughed out loud. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050/420 "2011-08-30T20:54:27Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > That’s what I was driving at as well, what sort of disability would you imagine would prevent someone from being able to access and use a free-standing, adjustable pulley-cable trainer system but at the same time _bring_ the person into the gym? I really don’t know enough about disabilities to be able to answer that question. > [@](#): > > That is what is so good and useful about equipment such as what I am describing; it is so _versatile_ and _accessible_ to virtually everyone, from all walks of life. So, what you’re saying here (as I read it) is that there is no disability that would prevent anyone from using this machine? None whatsoever? Every single person with every conceivable disability could use this machine? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jamiemcgarry-wheel-yourself-on-down-here/594050.md?page=22)