# Jan. 21, 2009 .Do you advise former president Bush to limit his foreign travel? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018 "2006-03-12T04:43:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/101 "2006-03-30T21:00:30Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The United Nations agreement on Iraq’s compliance with weapons inspections did reserve the right to use military force if necessary. - it also pretty clearly stated that the power to decide when military intervention was justified rested with the Security Council, _not_ with a random member-state with a trigger-happy administration and too many voters watching Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/102 "2006-03-30T21:10:19Z")
What do you mean by “random”? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/103 "2011-02-06T00:38:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would anyone be perturbed that same rabidly anti-Bush poster on an internet message board makes the unsupported claim that Bush could be arrested in Europe? Since it’s an entirely fanciful proposition, it invites only derision. > > Would it confirm your impression of lefties if one of the righties on this board opened a thread that Kerry could be arrested in Europe for war crimes committed during Vietnam? Didn’t he, afterall, pretty much admit that he committed such crimes? Should any of those lefties be perturbed? Of course not. Still laughing? [http://gawker.com/5752756/swiss-arrest-threats-scare-george-w-bush-away](http://gawker.com/5752756/swiss-arrest-threats-scare-george-w-bush-away) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/104 "2011-02-06T01:13:51Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Still laughing? > [http://gawker.com/5752756/swiss-arrest-threats-scare-george-w-bush-away](http://gawker.com/5752756/swiss-arrest-threats-scare-george-w-bush-away) Yes, I’ve been laughing nonstop since 2006. Seriously, _The Gawker_? I have just as much reason to believe the comment on that page as I do the gossip that it is. > [@](#): > > OK Adrian you need to give more details. > Bush was invited by a Jewish charitable organization to come to their gala (when I say invited, i really mean ‘paid a hefty sum’). Like him or not (I’m in the “HATE HIM” side), he was supposed to come to a ‘private’ event (read: non gov’t related). When people got wind that he was supposed to be here, they caused an uproar. Which is so fucking hypocritical, because when Ahmedinejad (sp?) came to Geneva, we didn’t hear the same complaints. > It got so nasty this time, we (=the Jewish community) were getting threats. It’s not like Bush cancelled his trip, as the blurb above suggests. We decided it would be best if he stayed home, for OUR own safety… > I’m right in the middle of it (live in GVA… ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/105 "2011-02-06T01:19:07Z")
From CBS News: > [@](#): > > Mr. Bush’s spokesman David Sherzer said the two-term president was informed Friday by the United Israel Appeal that his Feb. 12 dinner speech in Geneva had been called off. ([link](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/05/world/main7321432.shtml)) No real credibility that “calls for a legal case against him” are why he didn’t go. He didn’t go because the event he was invited to informed him they couldn’t host him any longer, thus eliminating the reason for the trip. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/106 "2011-02-06T01:54:57Z")
Request for clarification, please. Are there places that Kissinger avoids out of fear? Is it fear of assassination or fear of incarceration? From several posts in this thread, it seems to be a given that his fear is genuine. I honestly have never heard this or if I have, the winds of time have blown it away. Can someone give me examples of the places he avoids and why? I’d really like to know and not because I’m doubting anyone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/107 "2011-02-06T01:56:56Z")
Here’s the thing. I’d like war criminals like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Yoo, etc. to be subject to arrest for war crimes and crimes against humanity of which there is ample evidence for starting wars under false pretenses and torturing people. But it isn’t going to happen, especially to Bush. The UK came within a hair’s breath of extraditing Pinochet (they did arrest him), but he comes from a third rate power at best. Nobody is going to be doing that to a former US head of state. It would make foreign travel impossible for leaders and former leaders and their lackeys. It just isn’t going to happen because everyone realizes that it would create a judicial freak show that would never end. Only losers like the Nazis and Milosevic are going to be put on trial. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/108 "2011-02-06T04:29:20Z")
Mace, learn to use the google: Here’s The Hill’s report–like them any better than gawker, ? (If you believe that the arrest threats were irrelevant, you are a fool.) Bottom line, Bush stays home… [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/142289-bush-cancels-swiss-visit-under-threat-of-protests-efforts-to-arrest-him](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/142289-bush-cancels-swiss-visit-under-threat-of-protests-efforts-to-arrest-him) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/109 "2011-02-06T14:56:29Z")
If Bush really believes in personal responsibility, he and his lawyers should go to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague and tell them to “bring it on”. Bush believes he is innocent of all possible charges against him. Let him prove it in a court of law. I am not suggesting that anyone in the US government should force him to do this. Although that would be simple justice for the people GWB has harmed, US government action against former US Presidents is considered a poor precedent. IMO the precedents do not account for how terrible a presidency could get. I posted this idea late in [post=12788046]2010[/post]. Along with a more constructive idea I posted in [post=9551714]2008[/post]: > [@](#): > > Alice Collins of Oak Lawn has an idea. > > 'Three hundred and sixty-five days a year, in the wind and snow of winter and the heat and humidity of summer, let him tend to the graves of the almost 4,000 men and women who have given their lives in the debacle of Iraq. They honored their oaths, obeyed their commander-in-chief and sacrificed their lives of promise to a lying, unprincipled warmonger. > > ‘He can begin at the grave of my grandson, Lcpl Jonathan W. Collins, killed in action on 8/8/2004.’ Since Dubya cannot leave the US, he is free to follow this advice. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/110 "2011-02-06T14:57:01Z")
Considering the Swiss ministry of justice has already come out saying they could not charge Bush, and the only people who are talking about arrest are Amnesty International and another organization actively trying to get a case started, I don’t think Bush cared about the arrest threats. Amnesty International doesn’t get to try people in criminal courts, when you have the head of the Swiss justice system saying no case would happen, that means a lot more than some NGO demanding a trial. From the article I have already linked: > [@](#): > > Furthermore, an initial assessment by the Swiss Justice Ministry concluded that President Bush would have enjoyed immunity from prosecution for any actions taken while in office, ministry spokesman Folco Galli told the AP. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/111 "2011-02-06T14:59:29Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > If Bush really believes in personal responsibility, he and his lawyers should go to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague and tell them to “bring it on”. Bush believes he is innocent of all possible charges against him. Let him prove it in a court of law. > > I am not suggesting that anyone in the US government should force him to do this. Although that would be simple justice for the people GWB has harmed, US government action against former US Presidents is considered a poor precedent. IMO the precedents do not account for how terrible a presidency could get. > > I posted this idea late in [post=12788046]2010[/post]. Along with a more constructive idea I posted in [post=9551714]2008[/post]: > > Since Dubya cannot leave the US, he is free to follow this advice. He can certainly leave the US, and has, since leaving office. He has traveled to China, Canada, South Korea, Japan, Brazil and apparently a few different Middle Eastern countries since leaving office. Also, the idea that one should _ask for a prosecution to be started against them_ to “prove” their innocence, shows just how fucked up the logic of people calling for a trial can get. Trials are for the state to _prove guilt_, not for someone who _isn’t even accused of a crime in a court_ to advocate that 1) charges be filed and 2) they be given a chance to “prove their innocence.” The default is guilt must be proven, innocence does not have to be and should not have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/112 "2011-02-06T15:00:58Z")
Also, Presidents make decisions that affect life and death, people die. These are not criminal acts but valid exercise of executive authority. “Declaring war on false pretenses” is not a crime. Perjury before Congress _is_, and if you think Bush can be convicted of that, then start writing the Department of Justice and ask them to look into it for you (I hope you have a lot of pen and stationery.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/113 "2011-02-06T15:17:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > “Declaring war on false pretenses” is not a crime. It is not a war crime. It is a Crime Against Peace. According to Robert H. Jackson, the chief American prosecutor in the Nuremberg Trials, ‘To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.’ ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/114 "2011-02-06T15:24:03Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > It is not a war crime. It is a Crime Against Peace. According to Robert H. Jackson, the chief American prosecutor in the Nuremberg Trials, ‘To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.’ And who would charge Bush with such a thing? The International Criminal Court did not specify what a “Crime of Aggression” was when it was formed in 2002. After a few years I believe they got it sorted out, but the ICC cannot try _anyone_ for a Crime of Aggression until 2017, and that is only going forward, it does not work retroactively. Secondly, the U.S. is not a signatory to the ICC. The ICC’s own charter says that it does _not_ possess universal jurisdiction, and to try a person from a non-member state there are only two options: 1. Cooperation from the non-member state 2. The U.N. Security Council can make a motion to put someone from a non-member state before the ICC for trial (this happened in a case involving Sudan.) However, as a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council the United States can block any such move it wishes, and would almost certainly do so if the SC moved to do this to Bush. Additionally the ICC is only supposed to go after cases where it finds the member country itself did not investigate the matter satisfactorily. That would be a whole legal case in and of itself, since Obama’s Department of Justice would argue it had done an investigation. Finally, Robert Jackson is long dead. Even if he were still alive (and the world’s oldest person) his authority as a Supreme Court justice ended when he left the court. His authority as a justice at the Nuremberg trials ended when those trials ended, his words had no lasting legal power. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/115 "2011-02-06T17:38:00Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Mace, learn to use the google: > > Here’s The Hill’s report–like them any better than gawker, ? (If you believe that the arrest threats were irrelevant, you are a fool.) Bottom line, Bush stays home… > > [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/142289-bush-cancels-swiss-visit-under-threat-of-protests-efforts-to-arrest-him](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/142289-bush-cancels-swiss-visit-under-threat-of-protests-efforts-to-arrest-him) Firstly, it is not my responsibility to “use google” to disprove your nutty assertions. You must first establish that they are true. Secondly, you need to find a non-blog, non-partisan source. Here, let me help you with an article from The New York Times: > [@](#): > > [Protest Threats Derail Bush Speech in Switzerland](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/world/europe/06bush.html?_r=1&ref=us) > > “For a long time at Amnesty International, we have been calling for the Obama administration to investigate human rights abuses at Guantánamo, the C.I.A. black sites, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it is clear that’s not happening,” said Widney Brown, Amnesty International’s senior director for international law and policy. > > Swiss officials told human rights groups recently that they had no plans to try to prosecute Mr. Bush, Ms. Brown said. But the prospect of large demonstrations at the site of Mr. Bush’s speech remained, and the event’s organizers feared that protests could turn violent. Protest organizers were said to have asked demonstrators to carry shoes to the event, recalling how an Iraqi journalist threw a shoe at Mr. Bush in 2008 to protest his visit to Baghdad. So, the person asking for the Swiss to arrest him states that they Swiss government told her they wouldn’t. I’ll note from your own blog cite: > [@](#): > > A right-wing member of the Swiss parliament also demanded last week Bush’s arrest on war crimes allegations if he came to the country, according to Reuters. > > Swiss officials countered that, as a former head of state, Bush would be protected with a level of diplomatic immunity, and Keren Hayesod, the group that had invited Bush, said the court actions against the former president did not play into the decision to go forward with the dinner without him. > > “We didn’t want to put people and property in Geneva at risk. The gala is maintained but George Bush will not take part,” the group’s lawyer, Robert Equey told the Tribune de Geneve. “The (criminal) complaints did not weigh in the decision.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/116 "2011-02-06T17:46:24Z")
ETA: I forgot to quote the best part of your cite. I guess you didn’t read past the sensational headline, but the very first sentence of the article says: > [@](#): > > President George W. Bush has canceled an event in the famously neutral country Switzerland because of expected protests to his presence there. It makes good tabloid news to link that with calls for his arrest, but the straight news is the visit was canceled because the expected protests. Bush is not under any threat of arrest if he travels to Europe. So, yeah, I’m still laughing. At you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/117 "2011-02-06T19:16:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > It is not a war crime. It is a Crime Against Peace. According to Robert H. Jackson, the chief American prosecutor in the Nuremberg Trials, ‘To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.’ Exactly. But it isn’t going to happen to Bush because the US is simply too powerful. There is ample evidence that Bush and Company did exactly what Goering and Company did that got them sentenced to death at Nuremburg. They started a war of aggression based on a bunch of lies. The difference is that at the end of WWII Goering and Company were utterly defeated, captured and at at our mercy. Incidentally, I think the result was a just one. The same thing happened with Saddam Hussein. He was an evil, repressive ruler. But he probably killed a lot less Iraqis in 30 years than the US did in 5. Abu Ghraib and other enhanced interrogation methods in Iraq had nothing to do with WMD or 9/11, Iraq having been involved in neither. It was just abuse of power and crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/118 "2011-02-06T19:32:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Exactly. > > But it isn’t going to happen to Bush because the US is simply too powerful. There is ample evidence that Bush and Company did exactly what Goering and Company did that got them sentenced to death at Nuremburg. They started a war of aggression based on a bunch of lies. The difference is that at the end of WWII Goering and Company were utterly defeated, captured and at at our mercy. Incidentally, I think the result was a just one. The same thing happened with Saddam Hussein. He was an evil, repressive ruler. But he probably killed a lot less Iraqis in 30 years than the US did in 5. Abu Ghraib and other enhanced interrogation methods in Iraq had nothing to do with WMD or 9/11, Iraq having been involved in neither. It was just abuse of power and crimes against humanity. You’re wrong about the number of Iraqi deaths, but that doesn’t really matter. However, don’t you think we should proceed chronologically and start with Bill Clinton for [Operation Noble Anvil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force)? It differs in degree, but not in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/119 "2011-02-06T19:43:19Z")
I think any government on Earth is going to have some serious ‘shit their pants’ moments just thinking about the possibility of arresting a former US President. All this pointless posturing, saying that the US couldn’t do anything about it, is just as silly as the very idea that it would be done in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/120 "2011-02-06T21:15:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > “Declaring war on false pretenses” is not a crime. Perjury before Congress _is_, and if you think Bush can be convicted of that, then start writing the Department of Justice and ask them to look into it for you (I hope you have a lot of pen and stationery.) :rolleyes: As if they’d ever look into it under any circumstances. The Bush Administration did lie repeatedly to Congress. They made up stories about mobile WMD labs, about fleets of drones, about all sorts of things they knew to be untrue. But they are Republicans, and so will never be called on it. They’ve got Obama covering for them. Bush could have been having Iraqi women hauled into the Oval Office and raping them in front of the Secret Service and he wouldn’t be punished. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018.md?page=7)