# Jan. 21, 2009 .Do you advise former president Bush to limit his foreign travel? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018 "2006-03-12T04:43:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/121 "2011-02-06T21:45:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: As if they’d ever look into it under any circumstances. > > The Bush Administration did lie repeatedly to Congress. They made up stories about mobile WMD labs, about fleets of drones, about all sorts of things they knew to be untrue. But they are Republicans, and so will never be called on it. They’ve got Obama covering for them. > > Bush could have been having Iraqi women hauled into the Oval Office and raping them in front of the Secret Service and he wouldn’t be punished. I don’t agree with most of what you’ve said, but we agree where it is important: **he will never be punished**. That being the case everything else is just background noise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/122 "2011-02-06T21:56:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re wrong about the number of Iraqi deaths, but that doesn’t really matter. However, don’t you think we should proceed chronologically and start with Bill Clinton for [Operation Noble Anvil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force)? It differs in degree, but not in kind. I disagree, Iraqi deaths and the number of Iraqi deaths matters and Bush killed more. [http://middleeast.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=middleeast&cdn=newsissues&tm=158&f=00&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press\_releases/2006/burnham\_iraq\_2006.html](http://middleeast.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=middleeast&cdn=newsissues&tm=158&f=00&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html) Even if you wish to accept the WSJ (Murdoch owned) figures, it is still unacceptable to kill lots of civilians for fraudulent reasons in order to sell arms, private mercenary contracts and steal oil for your friends. The point being not that he killed more, but killed hundreds of thousands of people for the stated reasons of removing WMD and avenging 9/11. Certainly his cronies made billions and billions of dollars doing so. You then compare the NATO actions in the Balkans saying that they are the same thing only different in a matter of degree. I disagree. Clinton may have violated US law in doing so, but not international law. In any event no prosecutor has filed charges against Clinton anywhere, and that is the closest equivalency. Clinton didn’t say that Milosevic had WMDs, participated in terror against the US or even steal oil. Clinton’s cronies didn’t make money off it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/123 "2011-02-06T22:34:17Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I disagree, Iraqi deaths and the number of Iraqi deaths matters and Bush killed more. [http://middleeast.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=middleeast&cdn=newsissues&tm=158&f=00&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press\_releases/2006/burnham\_iraq\_2006.html](http://middleeast.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=middleeast&cdn=newsissues&tm=158&f=00&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2006.html) Even if you wish to accept the WSJ (Murdoch owned) figures, it is still unacceptable to kill lots of civilians for fraudulent reasons in order to sell arms, private mercenary contracts and steal oil for your friends. But that cite is not claiming what you claimed. You said more were killed during the Iraq war than under 30 years of SH. That’s not the same as saying how many would have died under SH during the time period of the Iraq War. > [@](#): > > You then compare the NATO actions in the Balkans saying that they are the same thing only different in a matter of degree. I disagree. Clinton may have violated US law in doing so, but not international law. In any event no prosecutor has filed charges against Clinton anywhere, and that is the closest equivalency. Clinton didn’t say that Milosevic had WMDs, participated in terror against the US or even steal oil. Clinton’s cronies didn’t make money off it. Let’s leave the money making bit out of it, because it’s impossible to prove and is not relevant to whether or not a war crime has been committed. And the bit about WMDs is also irrelevant, because it’s not a war crime to be mistaken about what someone may have, even if it’s an outright lie. However, it certainly is against international law to take military action against another country w/o UNSC approval. Clinton didn’t have that, and he knew he wouldn’t get it, just like Bush. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/124 "2011-02-07T03:06:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > ETA: I forgot to quote the best part of your cite. I guess you didn’t read past the sensational headline, but the very first sentence of the article says: > > It makes good tabloid news to link that with calls for his arrest, but the straight news is the visit was canceled because the expected protests. Bush is not under any threat of arrest if he travels to Europe. > > So, yeah, I’m still laughing. At you. That’s cool. It starts here, we’ll see where it ends. He has (imprudently, I think) confessed to ordering torture. I’m betting he stays in the USA permanently–whether he ever admits anxiety over prosecution, who knows? You wanna put money on his next foreign trip? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/125 "2011-02-07T03:09:06Z")
Oh, and, for the record, Yeah, I’d prosecute Clinton if I were Baltazar Garzon and he came into my jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/126 "2011-02-07T03:12:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > He can certainly leave the US, and has, since leaving office. He has traveled to China, Canada, South Korea, Japan, Brazil and apparently a few different Middle Eastern countries since leaving office. > > Also, the idea that one should _ask for a prosecution to be started against them_ to “prove” their innocence, shows just how fucked up the logic of people calling for a trial can get. Trials are for the state to _prove guilt_, not for someone who _isn’t even accused of a crime in a court_ to advocate that 1) charges be filed and 2) they be given a chance to “prove their innocence.” The default is guilt must be proven, innocence does not have to be and should not have to be. Point taken - IANAL. I do think there’s a chicken-and-egg problem to your point. Other countries may be unwilling to pursue a case against Dubya, because they know it won’t go anywhere. So no justice for the kidnapped, for the tortured, for the invaded, for the victims of the invasion-induced chaos, because the chief of the international criminal enterprise happened to be the POTUS, and handing over an ex-POTUS just isn’t cricket. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/127 "2011-02-07T03:14:16Z")
> **[Torture complaints – DW – 02/05/2011](https://www.dw.com/en/bush-swiss-trip-canceled-after-complaints-on-torture/a-14820489)** > > A trip by former US President George W. Bush to Switzerland has been canceled over security concerns, after human rights groups said they planned to call for his arrest on charges of alleged torture. also. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/128 "2011-02-07T03:15:58Z")
since leaving office Since confessing (cheerfully…) to personally ordering waterboarding? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/129 "2011-02-07T05:15:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that cite is not claiming what you claimed. You said more were killed during the Iraq war than under 30 years of SH. That’s not the same as saying how many would have died under SH during the time period of the Iraq War. > Let’s leave the money making bit out of it, because it’s impossible to prove and is not relevant to whether or not a war crime has been committed. And the bit about WMDs is also irrelevant, because it’s not a war crime to be mistaken about what someone may have, even if it’s an outright lie. > > However, it certainly is against international law to take military action against another country w/o UNSC approval. Clinton didn’t have that, and he knew he wouldn’t get it, just like Bush. You need to learn to read for comprehension. I said probably. And then you need to understand that you are defending 695,000 additional deaths. We well aware that you think hundreds of thousands, if not millions on millions of deaths is something worth defending from the people that are appalled by such atrocities and that you think that NATO actions to prevent genocide in the Balkans is comparable not as a worthwhile action, but a crime. We get it that you think that people who are not part of your tribe can be slaughtered by countless numbers and that it is all justifiable by a few rhetorical tricks like semantic ambiguities, undistributed middles, and obtuseness. Whether you play these sophist games for mere amusement or actual profit is a secret you can take all the way to your bank. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/130 "2011-02-07T07:27:13Z")
'T’ain’t strategically sound to let a former Prez get arrested - they know too much classified info and who knows what they’ll spill after a while in a foreign pound-me-in-the-ass facility. Bust him out, or level the place with a cruise missile. Either way, not a time for pussyfooting. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/131 "2011-02-07T09:52:42Z")
I guess I am outraged that W. eschewed the Oscar Wilde injunction about hypocrisy being the tribute that vice pays to virtue–the application here being that the sonofabitch shouldn’t be allowed to go around free, \*\*bragging \*\*about committing crimes against humanity, not if we are ever to have a hope of pulling ourselves out of the morass that was the 20th century’s “anything goes if you are powerful enough” rule. I am not naive enough to expect that a bunch of puffy sleeved Swiss Guards are about to go up against the Secret Service (surely not successfully), but I think it counter to the progress of humanity for there to be no public sanction for confessing to being the waterboarder-in-chief. An outright statement that “we would, (if we could) put your ass on trial so don’t spit in our eye by showing up to collect an honorarium” is the least civilization demands. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/132 "2011-02-07T13:20:07Z")
The Swiss Guard may look silly, but members have to have served in the Swiss Army — and the Swiss may be pacific, but produce fine soldiers — they are proficient with hand-guns and rifles ( Berettas, Brownings and SIG pistols and H&K submachine guns ), as well as halbards and study a particular form of judo. Considering they have a far more prominent target to guard than a temporary president, and that unlike the secret service they haven’t had any principals assassinated in public; I should think they are prolly more professional. As for Bush, or any other ex-president, of course no administration would ever permit a foreign prosecution. And not just because of the precedent; just because. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/133 "2011-02-07T20:24:37Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > and the Swiss may be pacific They’re neutral, not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/134 "2011-02-07T21:09:39Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I guess I am outraged that W. eschewed the Oscar Wilde injunction about hypocrisy being the tribute that vice pays to virtue–the application here being that the sonofabitch shouldn’t be allowed to go around free, \*\*bragging \*\*about committing crimes against humanity, not if we are ever to have a hope of pulling ourselves out of the morass that was the 20th century’s “anything goes if you are powerful enough” rule. I am not naive enough to expect that a bunch of puffy sleeved Swiss Guards are about to go up against the Secret Service (surely not successfully), but I think it counter to the progress of humanity for there to be no public sanction for confessing to being the waterboarder-in-chief. An outright statement that “we would, (if we could) put your ass on trial so don’t spit in our eye by showing up to collect an honorarium” is the least civilization demands. And yet even that isn’t happening. But you refuse to question your own premises, instead insisting that reality must be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/135 "2011-02-08T06:00:35Z")
_question your own premises_ Those being which? That a frank confession such as that made by Bush ought to have consequences? I did say **ought** , right? Or are you quarreling with the general proposition that human progress implies a transition from “might makes right” to some sort of international order? I haven’t proposed that we have, in fact, completed such a transition, but surely, the mere existence of the ICC, (albeit lacking the ratification of the “indispensable party”) is a small step towards the enunciation of such an order. Help me out here, i thought I was clear that we are a long way from having achieved full migration upward of sovereignty (yeah, I’m one of those black helicopter, one world types) but I don’t think you can simply call me _pisher_ for wishing it were so… Oh, and I do believe Kissinger could run afoul of universal jurisdiction in the right time and place, granted he is not a former head of state… (like, say Pinochet? Who did, after all, have a close call and yes Chile is not the US) ---
**Author:** ![Philliam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/philliam/32/3011_2.png) [@Philliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philliam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/136 "2011-02-08T20:24:48Z")
I, for one, suggest that he increase his foreign travel significantly. With the number of countries available, he could spend years abroad. I’m sure there are many governments that would like to compare methodologies. Stay as long as you like, George, see how that works out for ya. Please don’t come and visit us, though - you’ll need a visa for our island and my little stamp pad just ran out of ink…dang. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/137 "2011-02-08T21:07:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > [QUOTE=Claverhouse] > and the Swiss may be pacific They’re neutral, not the same thing. [/QUOTE] Yeah - Lots of Swiss speak \*German! \* Pacifist? Ha! ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/138 "2011-02-09T01:57:16Z")
German! Pacifist? Ha! Yeah, but (open headexplode) The Germans are possibly the most pacifist europeans around now…not to mention the hippest (close headexplode) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/139 "2011-02-09T15:02:55Z")
Former presidents are issued diplomatic passports as a matter of protocol. As such, detaining them would be problematic, no matter how many issues a particular country might have with an individual former president. [Cite.](http://www.slate.com/id/1007828/) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018/140 "2011-02-13T01:54:16Z")
I think it fair to speculate that a credible indictment for a crime against humanity will trump diplomatic immunity…"serious crimes’ are outside the Vienna Convention protection, as that Davis fellow is learning in Pakistan, even as we banter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jan-21-2009-do-you-advise-former-president-bush-to-limit-his-foreign-travel/348018.md?page=8)