# Jane Elliott, Educator, asks white people if they would like to be treated like a black person? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2020, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927 "2020-07-01T11:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/21 "2020-07-01T17:07:43Z")
Well let’s say one brave soul did stand up. What’s next? And what really is she trying to say with the rest of her statement? Yes, we know black people are often discriminated against. What are we supposed to do about it? No really? Thing is EVERYONE who stands out gets treated different. Asking another question, “how many of you normal sized people would like to trade lives with someone 7 foot tall or 4 foot tall?”. PS. at the same time I am thinking about how I’ve been trying to help my son get a scholarship for college and I see so many are for non-whites or for women that yes, I might be tempted to stand up and say “yea, I’ll be black and will deal with some crap, as long as I get the benefits”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/22 "2020-07-01T17:34:45Z")
Not going to get into analogies, but the initial situation reminds me of Derrick Bell’s Faces at the Bottom of the Well. As I recall, Bell presented several thought experiences, such as asking a caucasian person whether they would agree to be (magically) changed to a person of color for any specific sum of money. Would a whit person become black for no charge? For a million $? 2 million? No sum of money? As I recall, this white middle aged, middle class male found that to be a very accessible and thought provoking book. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/23 "2020-07-01T19:06:48Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > And what really is she trying to say with the rest of her statement? Yes, we know black people are often discriminated against. What are we supposed to do about it? > > No really? At an absolute bare minimum, you could avoid rummaging through the internet looking for things you can construe as insulting to yourself and then posting them in hopes of finding some sort of catharsis through shared recreational outrage with other white people. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/24 "2020-07-01T19:31:19Z")
I think that most people agree that, on average, being white sucks less. They just don’t like it being called “white privilege”. Privilege is an extremely loaded term. [This is is becoming recognized among some anti-racist advocates.](https://medium.com/@davidcampt/things-that-anti-racism-allies-need-to-stop-doing-796b0f7bc213) (sorry if behind paywall, open in incognito if so). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/25 "2020-07-01T20:34:19Z")
I think any term you use that doesn’t treat white cis maleness as “normal” and everything else as “variation” is going to receive pushback. E The story of social activism is the story of endlessly being told the underlying cause is just, but some little thing just ruins it. BLM? Respectfully kneeling during the anthem? There’s always a problem, it’s always "I agree with what you say, but your manner is potentially offensive. Not to me, cuz I get it, but to these other assholes. And I can’t really support you as long as they aren’t satisfied. " Early in my marriage, nearly 20 years ago, we were having a long boring talk about nagging and chores, and my husband explained that he didn’t mind me reminding him, but hated to be nagged. So I asked him to give me an example of a not nagging reminder that would inspire him to act. And he realized he couldn’t. It was an important moment for both of us. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/26 "2020-07-01T21:11:41Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Thing is EVERYONE who stands out gets treated different. Asking another question, “how many of you normal sized people would like to trade lives with someone 7 foot tall or 4 foot tall?”. If you stop and think for a second, you’ve just highlighted the banality of your own bigotry and those who think that being black is something that stands out and sets you apart. Overcoming that sort of innate discrimination is the entire point of overcoming racism. Ethnicity is not a noteworthy characteristic with respect to how someone ought to be treated. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > PS. at the same time I am thinking about how I’ve been trying to help my son get a scholarship for college and I see so many are for non-whites or for women that yes, I might be tempted to stand up and say “yea, I’ll be black and will deal with some crap, as long as I get the benefits”. In your own lifetime, I bet you can remember when women and minorities were actually not given these opportunities. Did you object then? Or were you blissfully unaware that being white and male was sufficiently advantageous, normal, in fact? Now, you’d consider trading your whiteness in for an advantage while still begrudging it to those same minorities. Do you recognize the implicit discrimination in your own arguments and views? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/27 "2020-07-01T21:25:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > > > And what really is she trying to say with the rest of her statement? Yes, we know black people are often discriminated against. What are we supposed to do about it? > > > > No really? > > At an absolute bare minimum, you could avoid rummaging through the internet looking for things you can construe as insulting to yourself and then posting them in hopes of finding some sort of catharsis through shared recreational outrage with other white people.#160; Bookmarked (Like “like”, only better! ) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/28 "2020-07-01T21:36:30Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Thing is EVERYONE who stands out gets treated different. Asking another question, “how many of you normal sized people would like to trade lives with someone 7 foot tall or 4 foot tall?”. I don’t know about you, but many men would gladly be 7 foot tall instead of their height. Because tall men are treated differently. They’re treated _better_. There are downsides too, but on the balance lots of people would take that deal. The problem isn’t noticing the color of someone’s skin. It’s treating them _worse_ because of it. I think the problem with Elliott’s argument is this: “I want to know why you’re so willing to accept it or to allow it to happen for others.” I think that the vast majority of people who agree that black people have a harder time due to societal discrimination don’t know how to fix the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/29 "2020-07-01T21:44:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s a speech. She’s not trying to get an accurate survey, but to make a point that being treated like a black person is worse than being treated like a white person. Not quite. She could give statistics about that. Her point, I think, is not only that black people are treated worse, but that we white people know it and mostly don’t do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/30 "2020-07-01T21:54:00Z")
But what if we do do something about it? What if we are working to treat people fairly? ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/31 "2020-07-01T21:57:35Z")
No I cant. I was born in 1965 and most places were integrated by then. I went to school in Texas with black kids. Lets look at the here and now where yes, many scholarships are set aside for non-whites. What should I tell my son when he looks at scholarships and finds he cant apply because of his skin tone or his gender? ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/32 "2020-07-01T21:59:05Z")
As far as I can tell nobody ever challenges her. I for one would ask her questions like how many black students did she teach? How many black co-teachers did she work with? Where was she during de-segregation? ---
**Author:** ![Telemachus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f1d935/32.png) [@Telemachus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemachus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/33 "2020-07-01T21:59:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Not only is there enormous social pressure not to stand up, but it takes place at a lecture by Jane Elliot, famous race educator. No one who would disagree would pay to hear her lecture. This is a key point. It stands to reason that the sort of person who’d attend a lecture like this in the first place already shares many of Elliot’s core beliefs. In the wider world, there are plenty of white people who’d _love_ to be black (and more than a few who think they already are!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/34 "2020-07-01T21:59:51Z")
Gish Gallop the problem away, **urbanredneck2**? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/35 "2020-07-01T22:00:24Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Well let’s say one brave soul did stand up. What’s next? She might ask why. If the person said, like you just did, it would be to get that scholarship which could be offered to make up for years of lower pay and worse education, she might challenge that. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Well let’s say one brave soul did stand up. What’s next? > > And what really is she trying to say with the rest of her statement? Yes, we know black people are often discriminated against. What are we supposed to do about it? > > No really? Who are you going to vote for? Someone who gives a shit about this problem? Or someone who looks at protesters and sees looters? That’s a start, doesn’t cost you anything. > [@](#): > > Thing is EVERYONE who stands out gets treated different. Asking another question, “how many of you normal sized people would like to trade lives with someone 7 foot tall or 4 foot tall?”. Why do keep equating being a person of color with being someone with some sort of physical issue. The world isn’t really easy for anyone four foot tall or seven foot tall - from them being outliers. Being a person of color is not being an outlier. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/36 "2020-07-01T22:01:16Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Lets look at the here and now where yes, many scholarships are set aside for non-whites. What should I tell my son when he looks at scholarships and finds he cant apply because of his skin tone or his gender? I am sure you can show us an example of this happening in real life, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/37 "2020-07-01T22:17:14Z")
I was born in 1966. For anyone who doesn’t know, I’m white. Your experience is far from universal as I was on buses that integrated the Louisville school system, greeted by white people yelling words I didn’t understand at eight years old and calling me a race traitor while throwing things. Armed federal marshals rode my buses. My youngest and I went to the African American History museum in DC last Summer and I saw the bus window from Boston and nearly broke down, I kept going back to that damned window and trying to get my breath and quiet my heart rate. So your experience is very different from mine in the same timeline - and I’m white. As for what to tell your kid, tell him the same thing I told mine when they couldn’t apply for the one for football players, or the one for sons and daughters of vets, or for the one for Polish Americans…scholarships are privately funded and each funding organization has the right to target their scholarship. When you are rich, you can fund a scholarship for people just like you. (And Mom should have saved more). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/38 "2020-07-01T22:18:58Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > You could even change it further. Would a person living a middle class life want to change places with a person who is blind or in a wheelchair? Would that confirm prejudice against the disabled? Why do you assume someone blind or in a wheelchair is NOT middle class? (Or even wealthy). The way you phrased that reveals quite a bit of bias on your part. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/39 "2020-07-01T22:35:55Z")
Yes, I messed up on that one. I meant to ask if you wouldnt want to be disabled, does that mean you are prejudice against the disabled? My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/40 "2020-07-01T23:03:59Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Yes, I messed up on that one. I meant to ask if you wouldnt want to be disabled, does that mean you are prejudice against the disabled? No, it doesn’t, but that’s kind of missing the point. The point is, why do we allow our society to treat about one-sixth of our fellow citizens in a way that we acknowledge is worse than the way we expect to be treated, rather than fixing that unfairness? I mean, think about what you’re saying here: your analogy is _“I wouldn’t want to be disabled because being disabled has specific objective disadvantages compared to being non-disabled, and is more difficult to deal with”_. In other words, you’re acknowledging that navigating our society as a black person has specific objective disadvantages compared to being white, and is more difficult to deal with. The question is not whether you personally have racist prejudices against black people. The question is, why you are willing to accept it as normal and unremarkable when the unfairness of our society toward black people makes the idea of being black as unappealing to you as the idea of being physically disabled? In fact, we as a society invest a hell of a lot of effort in denying that such unfairness against black people exists, or that it’s any worse than having some scholarships targeted to members of underrepresented groups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927.md?page=3)