# Jane Elliott, Educator, asks white people if they would like to be treated like a black person? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2020, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927 "2020-07-01T11:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/101 "2020-07-03T16:32:24Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Doesn’t that pride in the color of one’s skin, allow people to divide and conquer? I believe it does, why can’t people just be people and we all stop letting ourselves be divided? Good question. If only we could get people to stop blaming “black communities” for the failures of individuals, then we may be able to stop letting ourselves be divided. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > I get being proud of overcoming and adapting, but proud to be a color or type (alternate types only I suppose) because people want to be proud of being different? No, it’s just not a color type, it is of a person who has come from a community that is collectively blamed for the actions of the worst of its individuals. If people didn’t lump everyone together due to that skin color and collectively blame them, then they’d probably have less to be proud of overcoming. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > But in a perfect world where everyone is treated the same regardless of orientation, skin color or whether they eat peanut butter on their pancakes, there is no pride in being a color, even if it’s a different color than someone else. Great, lets work to make that perfect world, rather than denigrating those who do not live in one. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/102 "2020-07-03T16:34:12Z")
Are you proud to be an American? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/103 "2020-07-03T16:40:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > It’s a speech. She’s not trying to get an accurate survey, but to make a point that being treated like a black person is worse than being treated like a white person. > > Not quite. She could give statistics about that. Her point, I think, is not only that black people are treated worse, but that we white people know it and mostly don’t do anything about it. This. Pretending like this is some sort of science experiment that is designed to “prove” something and then pointing out its flaws is . . . failing to fundamentally grasp what the point of the question was. It’s a rhetorical method to get an acknowledgement from the group that in our society being white comes with many privileges that they would not willingly give up. And, it doesn’t allow people to hide behind equivocations that they might if asked simply: “do you think black people are treated worse than white people in America?” If there are a few people who honestly would rather be treated like a black person than a white person, and they feel unable to raise their hands because everyone will think they’re idiots, well, then maybe that’s an added positive outcome. The point is not to debate the truth of whether black people have a tough go of it in America; that’s the starting assumption. The point is to get the group on board with that concept in as direct a way as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/104 "2020-07-03T16:42:13Z")
No one is denigrating, and the defense of such is a straw man. What I have said all along is that the choice of individuals is indeed their own…Yet somehow it becomes a collective problem, when it becomes a collective problem, it is only fair to look at the group that is under-performing, or over-represented in a bad statistical category. You guys can keep dancing around it all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/105 "2020-07-03T16:43:26Z")
What is the deep mythic truth we are dancing around? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/106 "2020-07-03T16:45:02Z")
**Kearsen1** , would you want to be treated the same way African-Americans are in this society? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/107 "2020-07-03T16:45:15Z")
Yeah, it’s a collective problem. It’s all of our problem. We all live in the same society, in the same community. It is that you want to divide us up, and tell others, “These are your problems, you need to fix them.” and then call it a job well done. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/108 "2020-07-03T16:45:36Z")
People kill me with this “pride” stuff. We take pride in all kinds of things that we have control over. Our good looks, our intelligence, our talents. These things are result of things coming together that we can’t take the credit for. But there’s two definitions of pride. The braggart kind and the “I’m happy to be” kind. Someone who feels “school pride” isn’t taking credit for a school’s success. They are saying they are happy to be a part of that school. When I listen to James Brown “Say It Loud, I’m Black & I’m Proud”, I _don’t_ think of myself. I think of all the awesome people who share my black identity. I think of all the great things they’ve done and created despite all the roadblocks along the way. And I feel happy to be associated with that, even if I haven’t done anything all that great myself. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/109 "2020-07-03T17:38:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I guess “white lack of disadvantages” doesn’t roll off the tongue so easily. Then I think advocates need to come up with one that does, because white privilege is a well poisoner, and will fall on deaf ears to lower-class white people. Most examples of “white privilege” are just the way things are supposed to be. Privilege invokes some nice thing, an “extra”, often earned, like being able to drive. A privilege is NOT a right. Not getting pulled over for no reason is not a “privilege”. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Having two parents is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not getting followed around in stores for no reason is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not getting thrown in prison for years over non-violent crimes is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not losing out on a job because of your name is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. I could go on and on, but the idea should not be to make whites feel like they got a great deal, some extras. All these things can be addressed without doing that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/110 "2020-07-03T17:44:35Z")
And yet, if only white people get treated the way all people should be treated, then it becomes a privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/111 "2020-07-03T20:01:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It has been shown that computer algorithms can have unintentional bias, depending on how they were developed and programmed. > > Also, computer selection can depend on key words - if you know the key words you can slant the odds of being selected in your favor. Those who know this and take advantage of it have a leg up. Who knows, how they learn about it, and how readily they can take advantage of it might well be affected by socio-economic factors like what dialect a person was educated in, their network, and so on. In addition to this, people whose parents have gone through the process, or who have mentors, have an advantage over the first in their families going to college or looking for a professional job. We can’t pretend that everyone starts out on the same rung of the ladder. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/112 "2020-07-03T20:17:18Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No one is denigrating, and the defense of such is a straw man. What I have said all along is that the choice of individuals is indeed their own…Yet somehow it becomes a collective problem, when it becomes a collective problem, it is only fair to look at the group that is under-performing, or over-represented in a bad statistical category. > > You guys can keep dancing around it all you want. As the saying goes, both the rich and the poor have the choice of sleeping under a bridge. Those working two crap jobs because their school was crap and they suffered from discrimination in getting a job probably don’t have the money or time to give their kids the enrichment that we entitled white people give our kids. What you are dancing around is that we kneecapped a segment of the population and then complain that they are not keeping up the pace in the race. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/113 "2020-07-03T21:33:24Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Then I think advocates need to come up with one that does, because white privilege is a well poisoner, and will fall on deaf ears to lower-class white people. Most examples of “white privilege” are just the way things are supposed to be. Privilege invokes some nice thing, an “extra”, often earned, like being able to drive. A privilege is NOT a right. > > Not getting pulled over for no reason is not a “privilege”. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Having two parents is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not getting followed around in stores for no reason is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not getting thrown in prison for years over non-violent crimes is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not losing out on a job because of your name is not a privilege. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. I could go on and on, but the idea should not be to make whites feel like they got a great deal, some extras. All these things can be addressed without doing that. I’m still on the fence as to whether “white privilege” is at all useful as a phrase, but you’ve done a really good job of expressing the case against. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/114 "2020-07-03T22:13:25Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I would be curious how you could create anything, that doesn’t have bias one way or the other? In a perfect world (and people being people), what is the solution to get rid of all bias? I don’t know. Not sure anyone one knows. If someone does know I sure hope they tell the rest of us how to go about it 'cause this sorry old world could use a fix for that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/115 "2020-07-03T22:19:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > What about drugs, gangs, black on black killings? I don’t know - what about redneck meth-heads and oxy-eaters, white teenagers involved in White Supremacist groups, and white-on-white killings? How come “white leaders” don’t do something about those problems? So much focus on what black people are supposedly doing wrong, so much ignoring of what white people are doing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/116 "2020-07-03T22:33:43Z")
[quote=“Ashtura, post:24, topic:913927, full:true”] I think that most people agree that, on average, being white sucks less. They just don’t like it being called “white privilege”. Privilege is an extremely loaded term.[/quote] I have no problem with white privilege as a concept. I find privilege to be a useful lends through we can look at how different groups of people experience daily life. Instead of looking at ways in which racism, sexism, etc., etc. make life difficult for people we can look at how it benefits others. People are resistant to the idea that they might be privileged somehow, but I think the way privilege has been invoked in recent years outside of academic circles has been a big problem. I have very often seen the concept of privilege used as a club by progressives. _Check your privilege_ was a fairly common refrain in some circles not too long ago and it was used to silence people rather than get them to look at things from another perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/117 "2020-07-03T23:36:58Z")
as a white person – I really can’t figure out why so often any statement that isn’t a full throated praise of the white race seems to be read as: > [@Acerbic](#): > > _Check your privilege_ was a fairly common refrain in some circles not too long ago and it was used to silence people rather than get them to look at things from another perspective. Yes, sometimes as white people, we have no idea what we’re talking about, because we haven’t experienced institutionalized racism, and we SHOULD shut up and let African Americans tell us about their experience. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/118 "2020-07-04T00:14:46Z")
It sounds more like you’re saying that the life a black person in our country is just like that of a disabled person. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/119 "2020-07-04T00:17:40Z")
[quote=“Ann\_Hedonia, post:81, topic:913927, full:true”] True story. I had a friend that was looking for work in her health care field after her divorce from a Indian man. She sent out tons of resumes and got no callbacks. I told her to go back to her maiden name. She did and found work right away.[/quote] If I were a betting man, I’d guess that the places she sent her resume to skipped her over assuming she would require sponsorship for an H-1B visa. That’s certainly still discriminatory behavior though. I had a supervisor encourage me to give extra scrutiny to applicants with foreign names noting where they went to college and especially high school on the assumption that they would need sponsorship for employment we were not prepared to offer. I wasn’t comfortable doing that so I just asked each candidate I contacted if they had an unrestricted right to work in the United States. The funny thing is, most Americans were confused by that answer. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927/120 "2020-07-04T00:24:46Z")
[quote=“Babale, post:117, topic:913927, full:true”] as a white person – I really can’t figure out why so often any statement that isn’t a full throated praise of the white race seems to be read as: [quote=“Acerbic, post:116, topic:913927”] Yes, sometimes as white people, we have no idea what we’re talking about, because we haven’t experienced institutionalized racism, and we SHOULD shut up and let African Americans tell us about their experience.[/quote] Sometimes, yes. But getting white people to understand what privilege is is difficult enough without wielding the word as a club. When someone says check your privilege what they usually mean is “your opinion is not welcome here.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jane-elliott-educator-asks-white-people-if-they-would-like-to-be-treated-like-a-black-person/913927.md?page=7)