# Japan criminalizes paying protection and extortion money to organized crime. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404 "2011-10-03T03:58:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/1 "2011-10-03T03:58:36Z")
[Pay the danegeld, go to jail](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/10/goodbye-yakuza/43206/) > [@](#): > > What is particularly vexing to the yakuza, however, is that any payments to the yakuza are criminalized. For example, if the yakuza are blackmailing you or extorting cash from you and you pay them off, you are no longer a victim under the new laws–you are also a criminal. Thus, for most people the benefits of throwing yen at the yakuza to keep them quiet has faded. Blackmail and extortion are huge money makers for the mob in Japan. Last year roughly 45 percent of all the people arrested for the crime of kyokatsu (恐喝) in Japan were yakuza members. But hush money can be a big business only when people will pay you to hush up. When they start going to the police as soon as you try to shake them down, the business model falls apart. (The Japanese government has it all in [manga form](http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/10/tmpdguide/original.png). Because Japan, presumably.) I know we have some NihonDopers among us, but this could be a template for other places the moment politicians think being tough on crime will win them votes. In some respects, we might have some stirrings of that over here already: > [@](#): > > In July of this year, President Obama, in an executive order, declared the yakuza a threat to the national security of United States and the world, and authorized seizure and freezing of any related assets in the US. Executive orders aren’t laws and only sometimes have a large effect on society, but ‘tough on crime’ is a common political slogan and this seems like a plan that’s simple to get peoples’ heads wrapped around. It’s already worked for Japan once: > [@](#): > > A retired police detective explains the law very simply: “The new laws will make the price of paying off the yakuza, in loss of face and in penalties, much more expensive than the actual cash payments to the yakuza. It highly incentives firms not to cooperate or collude with organized crime, much as the revisions to the commerce law in December 1997, made it unacceptable for large listed companies to pay off sokaiya (総会屋), a/k/a racketeers. After a few major company executives were arrested along with the bad guys for riekikyo (利益供与) the pay-offs drastically declined, as did the number of sokaiya.” Also, there’s this: > [@](#): > > **The new ordinances do not have exceptions for foreign firms.** They obligate all companies operating within Tokyo to follow the ordinance by inserting organized crime exclusionary clauses into their contracts, and making an effort not to do business with the yakuza and/or other anti-social forces. (Bolding mine.) If you go the police before they find out, however, they will not prosecute; that seems like precisely the kind of thing that would get lost in translation. Now, for the debate: I think this is a wonderful policy, if only on game-theoretic grounds, and I would love to see it implemented here. Any objections? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/2 "2011-10-03T10:27:32Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Now, for the debate: I think this is a wonderful policy, if only on game-theoretic grounds, and I would love to see it implemented here. Any objections? It follows the logic that you don’t negotiate with terrorists. I’ve suggested a similar approach to piracy before, since the only reason anyone hijacks a ship is because they think they’ll come out on top. If pirates never get paid, there’s no incentive to become a pirate. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/3 "2011-10-03T10:51:21Z")
how do they define the yakuza for enforcement purposes? And how are they going to differentiate between “protection money” and “spending money at Soprano-kun’s totally legit pachinko parlor”? After all, over here in America a lot of organized crime involves coercing businesses to do legit business with the mob-controlled companies under less-than-optimal conditions, not just handing over cash to thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/4 "2011-10-03T11:03:43Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > \ > > Now, for the debate: I think this is a wonderful policy, if only on game-theoretic grounds, and I would love to see it implemented here. Here means where? And it’s total weak sauce. If it were implemented somewhere like the US it might make a difference. But not in Japan. The article itself explains why: 1. “Blackmail and extortion are huge money makers for the mob in Japan.” 2. In other words, if you pay protection money to the yakuza, or use them to facilitate your business affairs, you will be treated as a criminal. You may be warned once, but if you persist in doing business with the yakuza, you may have your name released to the public, be fined, imprisoned, or all of the above. - Or, most likely, you’ll just be warned again. Yep, they’ll warn your ass _so_ bad (until you find a way to get around the law). > [@](#): > > In July of this year, President Obama, in an executive order, declared the yakuza a threat to the national security of United States and the world, and authorized seizure and freezing of any related assets in the US. No one in Japan cares. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/5 "2011-10-03T12:21:32Z")
**Isamu** : Aren’t most Dopers Americans? Anyway, I’m American. I linked to an American website. America America America, and all that. Tut tut. Also, I think you’re missing a feature: If the business comes to the police before the police have to come to them, they’re not prosecuted. This gives businesses an incentive to not only comply, but to be quick about it because they can’t know how much the police know about them. **Grumman** I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/6 "2011-10-03T13:11:24Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Isamu** : Aren’t most Dopers Americans? Anyway, I’m American. I linked to an American website. America America America, and all that. Tut tut. If you want this to be an American-only website, which it is currently not, all you need to do is petition the administrators to make it so. Otherwise, it is as it always has been, open to most of the world. Most non-Americans on this board continue to let you pretend otherwise, so you don’t look like a fool. Each to their own. > [@Derleth](#): > > **Isamu** Also, I think you’re missing a feature: If the business comes to the police before the police have to come to them, they’re not prosecuted. This gives businesses an incentive to not only comply, but to be quick about it because they can’t know how much the police know about them. I haven’t missed anything. If they don’t come forward they risk being warned. If they do come forward they risk much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/7 "2011-10-03T14:05:16Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Isamu** :Also, I think you’re missing a feature: If the business comes to the police before the police have to come to them, they’re not prosecuted. This gives businesses an incentive to not only comply, but to be quick about it because they can’t know how much the police know about them. I think it comes down to who you are more afraid of, the yakuza or the authorities. I don’t think that is going to be a close one. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/8 "2011-10-03T16:28:10Z")
Horrible thought - this could backfire. _Badly_. Consider: if you pay protection money, you are now a criminal as well. Once you get started, you have very, very good reasons to continue. Basically, the law criminalizes being under pressure which the law itself apparently isn’t being effective about stopping. The result may well be a toughening of the criminal underbelly, as victims decide the extortioners are at least fair about being bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/9 "2011-10-03T16:46:50Z")
How far will the Yakuza go in pressuring its victims? If the law makes you pay monetary penalties, is it consistent with their modus operandi for the Yakuza to threaten to do things worse than just taking your money? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/10 "2011-10-04T00:37:41Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > If you want this to be an American-only website, which it is currently not, all you need to do is petition the administrators to make it so. Otherwise, it is as it always has been, open to most of the world. Most non-Americans on this board continue to let you pretend otherwise, so you don’t look like a fool. Each to their own. You know, if you didn’t get my joke you could have just said so. **TheMightyAtlas** : That’s a good point. **smiling bandit** : If you pay the money _and don’t come forward fast enough_. I think that part of the law is going to save a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/11 "2011-10-04T02:31:28Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [URL=“[Goodbye to the Yakuza - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/10/goodbye-yakuza/43206/)”]Now, for the debate: I think this is a wonderful policy, if only on game-theoretic grounds, and I would love to see it implemented here. Any objections? Well, it’s sort of blaming the victim, isn’t it ? The police should be arresting the Yakuzas doing the extortion in the first place. For a host of reasons (many of which involve lack of resources/manpower, corruption, fear and believe it or not, the popularity of the Yakuza), it doesn’t, or does in really half-assed ways. However, the poor schmucks who already get hit up by Yakuza goons for pocket change demonstrably don’t have people protecting them - if they did, they wouldn’t get taxed now would they ? So, they’re a soft target for everyone, including the police. They’re easy marks. Fuckable aplenty. On paper, it’s win-win for the police, because it pisses off the Yakuza without directly antagonizing them - no retaliation there. It’s also lasting, because the Yakuza are not going to spot fine or bail money for their racket victims - that would be retarded, it’s supposed to work the other way 'round ! But… from the point of view of the poor schmuck, it pretty much sucks the whole way. First he’s not getting helped by the police when people in expensive suits and cheap baseball bats come knocking, then he’s getting screwed for ponying up the money (paying a fine over paying a racket, that’s pretty ironic), then he’s left to dry. And then , presumably, the guys in suits come knocking again because why wouldn’t they ? All of this, and having done nothing more illegal besides being scared shitless of violent people (the police included - the Japanese police is notoriously unsubtle in its methods andcan be a bit… random in what it enforces and when, or who it decides is guilty). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/12 "2011-10-04T03:27:16Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **smiling bandit** : If you pay the money _and don’t come forward fast enough_. I think that part of the law is going to save a lot of people. Yeah, I don’t see that happening. Aside from which, I know a thing or two about japanese law. Specifically, it’s one of the cruellest and least fair tings in any decent democracy on eath. Those cops are the nastiest buggers on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/13 "2011-10-04T21:29:56Z")
Got any specific examples **Smiling bandit**? You don’t get a 90%+ conviction rate by being all nice and fluffy though I suppose. Personally I think the proposed law is an interesting idea, comparable to Norway(?) criminilsing the customers of prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/14 "2011-10-05T03:21:02Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Personally I think the proposed law is an interesting idea, comparable to Norway(?) criminilsing the customers of prostitutes. Except no one’s coming to Norway’s Johns with a bunch of thugs forcing them to go out looking for hookers. There’s no reason why that shouldn’t be illegal. This just means the poor bastards getting squeezed by the Yakuza get victimized twice; first by the Yakuza, then by the cops. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/15 "2011-10-05T07:59:12Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Personally I think the proposed law is an interesting idea, comparable to Norway(?) criminilsing the customers of prostitutes. [sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden) ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/16 "2011-10-05T21:43:10Z")
Thanks **willthekittensurvive?** , I wasn’t sure which country had done it. Maybe nordic pimps are more pushy than we’re used to **Vihaga**? Still waiting on **smiling bandit’s** examples though. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/17 "2011-10-06T05:33:36Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > [sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden) Actually both Sweden and Norway have done it, and there are plenty of reasons why it shouldn’t be illegal, but that’s not the point of this thread. It really seems to me that this law gives businesses that have been squeezed an even greater disincentive to go the police about it, without giving them any real incentive to refuse to pay (“I’m sorry, Mr Yakuza, I can’t give you that money. It’s illegal” 😕 ). I suppose we’ll have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, though. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/18 "2011-10-06T05:46:27Z")
I can’t see anyway how this is enforcable. I’d imagine that most Yakuza payments are already in the form of forced business to Yakuza owned businesses, hostess bars would be the easiest marks. As a business owner you get a visit, saying that if you don’t want trouble, just go to XYZ hostess club and spend one hour a week. That hostess club happens to charge 15,000 yen or so “System” for a one hour stay. Of course if your business is more successful, they insist you have to buy a couple of top shelf drinks for the girls, suddenly its more like 40,000 yen for a one hour stay. You get a receipt and everything, there is no way to prove that you’re not just a business owner addicted to hostess bars (as many many Japanese males are) or that you knew a particular Hostess bar is Yakuza owned. In fact the above scenario and money laundering in general, is the only one which makes sense to me exactly how there can so many hostess bars all over Japan. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/19 "2011-10-06T18:35:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, it’s sort of blaming the victim, isn’t it ? > The police should be arresting the Yakuzas doing the extortion in the first place. For a host of reasons (many of which involve lack of resources/manpower, corruption, fear and believe it or not, the popularity of the Yakuza), it doesn’t, or does in really half-assed ways. However, the poor schmucks who already get hit up by Yakuza goons for pocket change demonstrably don’t have people protecting them … So, they’re a soft target for everyone, including the police. They’re easy marks. Fuckable aplenty. > …But… from the point of view of the poor schmuck, it pretty much sucks the whole way. First he’s not getting helped by the police when people in expensive suits and cheap baseball bats come knocking, then he’s getting screwed for ponying up the money (paying a fine over paying a racket, that’s pretty ironic), then he’s left to dry. And then , presumably, the guys in suits come knocking again because why wouldn’t they ? > All of this, and having done nothing more illegal besides being scared shitless of violent people (the police included - the Japanese police is notoriously unsubtle in its methods andcan be a bit… random in what it enforces and when, or who it decides is guilty). We have a winner. Go after the gangsters, not the victims. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-criminalizes-paying-protection-and-extortion-money-to-organized-crime/598404/20 "2011-10-06T20:14:06Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Still waiting on **smiling bandit’s** examples though. Sice I didn’t check this thread, I didn’t know you asked. While not the only reason, imagine first the incredibel pressure American cops can successfully bring to get confessions. Now imagine that ina society built around enforced “harmony”. > **[Criminal justice system of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan#Conviction_Rate)** > > Within the criminal justice system of Japan, there exist three basic features that characterize its operations. First, the institutions—police, government prosecutors' offices, courts, and correctional organs—maintain close and cooperative relations with each other, consulting frequently on how best to accomplish the shared goals of limiting and controlling crime. Second, citizens are encouraged to assist in maintaining public order, and they participate extensively in crime prevention campaig...