# Japan is considering purchase of F-35Bs. China's gonna be pissed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 27, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404 "2017-12-27T18:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/1 "2017-12-27T18:35:41Z")
According to the Japan Times: “[the Defense Ministry is mulling a plan to buy F-35B stealth fighter jets for use on its helicopter carriers](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/12/25/national/politics-diplomacy/japan-considering-buying-f-35b-fighters-can-operate-helicopter-carriers/#.WkPhCt-nFjV)”. Their constitution says “Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes” and goes on to say that “land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained” (or at least, that’s [what Wikipedia says](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Japan#Renunciation_of_war_(Article_9))). Since WWII, they’ve formed a “self-defense” force, and it has grown in capabilities over the years. One of the latest innovations of the JMSDF are “helicopter destroyers”. They commissioned the Hyūga in 2009, the Ise in 2011, and the larger Izumo in 2015 and (her sister ship) the Kaga earlier this year. They’ve also purchased 42 F-35As and will be doing final assembly work in-country for most of them. Now they’re considering purchasing a handful of F-35Bs, whose main advantage over the A model is their ability to launch from (and land on) smaller flat-top ships like the helicopter destroyers mentioned above. The thought of Japanese aircraft carriers again plying the oceans is upsetting to some people, particularly the Chinese. I’m generally of the opinion that whatever discomfits China is a good thing, and I’m in favor of increased military spending by our allies, particularly when it involves buying equipment from American companies, but what sayeth the Dope? Is there a cause for concern here that I’m not seeing or undervaluing? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/2 "2017-12-27T19:07:37Z")
This is just a stopgap measure until Japan gets [their own fighter jets](http://www.japankyo.com/2017/04/wacky-weird-interesting-japanese-cool-henkei-shojo-henkei-girls-anime-high-school-girl-upskirt-panty-shot-fighter-jet-transform-panchira-cleavage-haru-preview-video/) into production. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/3 "2017-12-27T19:18:00Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > This is just a stopgap measure until Japan gets [their own fighter jets](http://www.japankyo.com/2017/04/wacky-weird-interesting-japanese-cool-henkei-shojo-henkei-girls-anime-high-school-girl-upskirt-panty-shot-fighter-jet-transform-panchira-cleavage-haru-preview-video/) into production. When I read your post, I thought the link was going to lead to an article about the Mitsubishi X-2. Imagine my surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/4 "2017-12-27T19:31:33Z")
I was actually expecting something from Macross. But the Japanese have never failed at managing to come up with something even more surprising. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/5 "2017-12-27T23:26:26Z")
South Korea is looking to get in on the Asian aircraft carrier party now too: > [@](#): > > South Korea’s navy is looking to buy stealthy F-35B aircraft, the Marine Corps jump-jet variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, for its new Dokdo-class amphibious assault ships. > > Citing military sources, South Korea’s Yonhap news agency said the Lockheed Martin Corp.-made short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35Bs would be part of South Korea’s long-term plan to build a “blue water” navy. > > South Korea currently has one amphibious assault ship, the 14,300-ton, 653-foot Dokdo, which is the largest ship in the South Korean navy. A second Dokdo-class amphib is planned for 2020. > > “I understand that the military top brass have recently discussed whether they can introduce a small number of F-35B fighters and operate them aboard the new ship that has already been deployed and one to be additionally built,” a military source told Yonhap. [source](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2017/12/26/south-korea-japan-mull-f-35bs-amphibious-assault-ships.html) I don’t know what the hell China _thought_ was going to happen when it began building its own aircraft carrier fleet, along with building islands and putting military bases on top of them, but I don’t think this should have come as much of a surprise to them. BTW, the [Japanese Ministry of Defense site](http://www.mod.go.jp/e/d_act/d_policy/dp01.html) says: > [@](#): > > Under the Constitution, Japan is permitted to possess the minimum necessary level of self-defense capability. The specific limit is subject to change relative to the prevailing international situation, the level of military technologies, and various other factors, and it is discussed and decided through annual budget deliberations and other factors by the Diet on behalf of the people. Whether such capability constitutes a “war potential” that is prohibited by Article 9, Paragraph 2 of the Constitution must be considered within the context of Japan’s overall military strength. Therefore, whether the SDF should be allowed to possess certain armaments depends on whether such possession would cause its total military strength to exceed the constitutional limit. > > The possession of armaments deemed to be offensive weapons designed to be used only for the mass destruction of another country, which would, by definition, exceed the minimum necessary level, is not permissible under any circumstances. For example, **the SDF is not allowed to possess** intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM), long-range strategic bombers, or **attack aircraft carriers**. That’s going to be an interesting hurtle to clear, given the F-35’s primary role as an attack / “strike” fighter. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/6 "2017-12-27T23:36:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know what the hell China _thought_ was going to happen when it began building its own aircraft carrier fleet, along with building islands and putting military bases on top of them I’m guessing that they thought that they were a sovereign nation and had as much right as any other sovereign nation to do it? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/7 "2017-12-27T23:43:43Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’m guessing that they thought that they were a sovereign nation and had as much right as any other sovereign nation to do it? Sure, and same goes for South Korea and Japan. Now China wants to warn Japan to “act prudently”, but they were more than happy to ignore all the ‘act prudently’ requests when they were busy building up Fiery Cross Reef. ---
**Author:** ![jerry150](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@jerry150](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerry150)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/8 "2017-12-28T00:46:18Z")
I thought there were many problems with that aircraft to the point where deploying them to our troops was held up.Software radar etc. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/9 "2017-12-28T01:20:27Z")
> [@jerry150](#): > > I thought there were many problems with that aircraft to the point where deploying them to our troops was held up.Software radar etc. It has its fair share of issues, but the [Marines (July 2015)](https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/marines-f-35b-joint-strike-fighter-ready-for-war/) and [Air Force (August 2016)](https://breakingdefense.com/2016/08/air-force-declares-f-35a-ioc-major-milestone-for-biggest-us-program/) have both achieved IOC already. [The squadron based near me is actually deployed to Japan right now](http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/10/26/300-airman-12-stealth-fighter-jets-deploying-from-hill-air-force-base-to-pacific-region/). There has been some speculation that the Izzys may have already used their F-35s in combat, but I don’t think anything’s been confirmed yet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/10 "2017-12-28T01:22:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > have both achieved IOC already. . The International Olympic Committee is getting them too? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/11 "2017-12-28T01:27:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > The International Olympic Committee is getting them too? :eek: Yeah, those Olympic bids better be up to snuff or else! 😉 Sorry for the unexplained acronym. IOC stands for “Initial Operational Capacity.” It basically means: this weapon system is ready to be used in combat. For example, for the USMC, the standard was: > [@](#): > > Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10-16 aircraft, and US Marines are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/12 "2017-12-28T01:38:01Z")
While there aren’t any legal issues that I know of with South Korea having aircraft carriers, I’m not sure why they would want them. If South Korea gets into a war, it’s going to be with North Korea. Nobody else has the motive or means to attack South Korea. And they’ve already got airfields perfectly placed to strike North Korea if need be. Yeah, yeah, everyone wants new toys, but everyone also has a limited budget: Why not spend that budget on toys that will actually be useful? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/13 "2017-12-28T02:30:18Z")
China is pissed about everything. Breakfast and puppy dogs upset the Chinese. Trying to make people happy who refuse to be happy is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/14 "2017-12-28T04:16:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > While there aren’t any legal issues that I know of with South Korea having aircraft carriers, I’m not sure why they would want them. If South Korea gets into a war, it’s going to be with North Korea. Nobody else has the motive or means to attack South Korea. And they’ve already got airfields perfectly placed to strike North Korea if need be. Yeah, yeah, everyone wants new toys, but everyone also has a limited budget: Why not spend that budget on toys that will actually be useful? I agree that war with North Korea is the most likely scenario, but I don’t think it’s the only plausible one. They have a territorial dispute with Japan. Indeed, they named their one and only amphibious assault ship, “the largest ship in the South Korean navy”, after [these disputed islets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liancourt_Rocks_dispute), which I think is a pretty good indication that it’s not a trivial matter for South Korea. > [@](#): > > On April 25, 2006, President Roh Moo-hyun of South Korea announced a special dialog about Korea–Japan relations, that demanded Japanese government’s actions following the apology of Japan about previous colonization of Korea. In the dialog, he said ‘Dokdo is Korean territory, not an ordinary Korean territory, but Korean territory which had been carved with bitter grief. Dokdo is the first Korean territory which was deprived of when Japan colonized Korea. Japan occupied the land for the battles during Russo-Japanese war’. And he expressed that Japanese claim for Dokdo means a pursuit of the right for the occupied land by imperial invasion, hence the claim for a previous colony. He stated that Dokdo was a symbol of the recovery of Korean sovereignty. This address related to a Japanese plan, announced the day before, for a maritime survey around the Liancourt Rocks. Japan argued that as it would be undertaking the survey in its own claimed EEZ, there was no need to obtain South Korea’s consent and that announcing its intentions was a simple courtesy. South Korea said it would arrest Japanese Coast Guard survey boats if they began to survey in South Korea’s claimed zone. To back up its threat, it dispatched 20 gunboats to the area to conduct high seas seizure drills. In these circumstances, U.S. ambassador in Tokyo, Tom Schieffer stated “The Ambassador stated the United States understands that Japan is within its rights under international law. The Koreans are behaving irrationally, and the United States is concerned that they may do something crazy, causing a major problem. Everyone needs to back off, he stressed, to enable the matter to be resolved peacefully.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/15 "2017-12-28T04:22:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > South Korea is looking to get in on the Asian aircraft carrier party now too: > > [source](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2017/12/26/south-korea-japan-mull-f-35bs-amphibious-assault-ships.html) > > I don’t know what the hell China _thought_ was going to happen when it began building its own aircraft carrier fleet, along with building islands and putting military bases on top of them, but I don’t think this should have come as much of a surprise to them. > BTW, the [Japanese Ministry of Defense site](http://www.mod.go.jp/e/d_act/d_policy/dp01.html) says: > > That’s going to be an interesting hurtle to clear, given the F-35’s primary role as an attack / “strike” fighter. “Under the Constitution, Japan is permitted to possess the \*minimum necessary level of self-\*_defense capability_.” Who is going to argue with the current Japanese government about what constitutes “the minimum necessary level of self-defense capability”? The US, the UN, China? The fact is that Japan will build any kind of military equipment it wants and feels it needs and if any one asks, they will call it “defensive”. And the way China is flexing its muscles lately, no one is going to say anything about a military build up in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/16 "2017-12-28T04:30:11Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > … Who is going to argue with the current Japanese government about what constitutes “the minimum necessary level of self-defense capability”? The US, the UN, China? … I believe the argument is largely _within_ the Japanese government / a matter for Japanese domestic politics, not from outside sources, although the Chinese and South Koreans are probably not very happy about it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/17 "2017-12-28T04:39:19Z")
The Izumo can carry, what 4-6 F35B, maximum? The Chinese have a plethora of AShMs, designed to get through the defenses of a USN Super Carrier group. You really think a jumper up helicooter carrier is going to bother them? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/18 "2017-12-28T04:51:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Izumo can carry, what 4-6 F35B, maximum? The Chinese have a plethora of AShMs, designed to get through the defenses of a USN Super Carrier group. You really think a jumper up helicooter carrier is going to bother them? I don’t know how many it could carry, but I don’t they’d be sending messages like “act prudently” if it didn’t. I suspect a half-dozen F-35Bs would wreck the Liaoning’s air wing rather readily. ETA: but to your point, the Izumo is certainly not a design optimized for STOVL operations. Elevator in the middle of the deck, etc. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/19 "2017-12-28T05:53:07Z")
A pair of DF21 would break Izumo in two. So? Plus the ‘35Bravo would have limited range and no refueling at sea. So actually getting to a Liaoning or later a [Type 002](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_002_aircraft_carrier) And wouldn’t read too much into “statements of concern”. Nations always say such when neighbors/rivals develop new capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404/20 "2017-12-28T14:34:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Izumo can carry, what 4-6 F35B, maximum? The Chinese have a plethora of AShMs, designed to get through the defenses of a USN Super Carrier group. You really think a jumper up helicooter carrier is going to bother them? In a shooting war of course, but in confrontations less than war, 4 aircraft in the right place and at the right time can assert sovereignty just fine. If China decides that island X is in fact part of China and the current owners have 4 fighter jets already sitting right next to it-that is a confrontation short of war. If China starts shooting bad things will happen to those jets, but it might be considered worth the risk to both sides. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-is-considering-purchase-of-f-35bs-chinas-gonna-be-pissed/805404.md?page=2)