# Japan: why not "The Japans"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 11, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122 "2024-09-11T13:02:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/1 "2024-09-11T13:02:43Z")
In the recent “Shogun” miniseries, the English-speaking characters conspicuously referred to Japan as “the Japans.” The creators of the miniseries seem to have put considerable effort into historical accuracy - if not for the actual story, then at least for things like culture, dress, and language (my Japanese-born wife said they were speaking a very antiquated form of Japanese).
According to something I read on the internet (so you know it’s true…), Japan did indeed used to be referred to as “the Japans”, as is the fashion for many nations that exist on a collection of islands. Modern examples would include the Philippines, the Maldives, and the Bahamas.
So what happened between then and now such that we no longer refer to Japan as the Japans?
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/2 "2024-09-11T13:21:15Z")
Perhaps because there was a government that asserted control over all of the islands, through the Emperor of Japan (subject to shoguns, of course)? That there was an existing polity there, unlike the other islands?
My ignorance may be showing, but I don’t think there were central governments for the Philippines or the Bahamas when Europeans began to interact with them?
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### Author:  [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/3 "2024-09-11T16:03:28Z")
I think this is basically it. When the Europeans arrived, they saw a feudal state with no effective central government (kind of like the Holy Roman Empire?) and didn’t see the deep cultural, linguistic, and historic ties that held everything together. Japan started getting re-unified in the middle of the 16th century by Oda Nobunaga, who was nearly there when he was assassinated; Toyotomi Hideyoshi finished the job, and Tokugawa Ieyasu took it over and locked it down in his own name, all roughly by the end of the 16th century. Through all this there continued to be emperors, who were, if not effective rulers, at least symbolic heads of state.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/4 "2024-09-11T16:12:47Z")
There are also archipelago nations that aren’t called The-This or The-That. Indonesia, for instance - thousands of islands. It seems just kind of random.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/5 "2024-09-11T16:18:35Z")
Except “Indonesia” is apparently a European name, taken from Greek, meaning the Indian islands:
> _Indonesia_ derives from the [Greek script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_script), _[Indus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus)_ (Ἰνδός), meaning “Indian Ocean”, and _nésos_ (νῆσος), meaning “island”.[[23]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Indonesia#cite_note-23) The name dates to the 18th century, far predating the formation of independent Indonesia.[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Indonesia#cite_note-indoety-24)
> **[Names of Indonesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Indonesia#Indonesia)**
>
> Indonesia is the common and official name to refer to the Republic of Indonesia or Indonesian archipelago; however, other names, such as Nusantara and East Indies are also known. Some names are considered obsolete and confined to certain periods of history, while some might be more geographically specific or general.
> On identifying geographical names of their lands, the Indonesian natives seldom transcend their traditional boundaries, which is relatively small confined in their tribal envi...
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/6 "2024-09-11T16:28:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> According to something I read on the internet (so you know it’s true…), Japan did indeed used to be referred to as “the Japans”, as is the fashion for many nations that exist on a collection of islands. Modern examples would include the Philippines, the Maldives, and the Bahamas.
>
> So what happened between then and now such that we no longer refer to Japan as the Japans?
We got to know them.
Imagine the story had been the other way around and it had been a Japanese sailor travelling to England. As a sailor with very little knowledge of English society, he might refer to his location as the British Isles. The geography is the first thing outsiders are going to learn about a place.
But the people who live there don’t think of their home primarily in geographic terms. They see themselves as living in the Kingdom of England (in the time period _Shogun_ is set in) or the United Kingdom (in current terms).
As outsiders grows more familiar with the local society, they become more likely to adopt the local viewpoint. We begin seeing England or Japan as countries rather than islands.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/7 "2024-09-11T16:57:04Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> According to something I read on the internet (so you know it’s true…), Japan did indeed used to be referred to as “the Japans”
I’m skeptical about this. I’ve read some of Lafcadio Hearn’s books on Japan and he didn’t call them “The Japans”.
> **[Lafcadio Hearn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafcadio_Hearn)**
>
> Yakumo Koizumi (小泉 八雲, 27 June 1850 – 26 September 1904), born Patrick Lafcadio Hearn (Greek: Πατρίκιος Λευκάδιος Χέρν, romanized: Patríkios Lefkádios Chérn), was a writer, translator, and teacher who introduced the culture and literature of Japan to the West. His writings offered unprecedented insight into Japanese culture, especially his collections of legends and ghost stories, such as Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things. Before moving to Japan and becoming a Japanese citizen, h
> **[Books by Hearn, Lafcadio (sorted by popularity)](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/368)**
>
> Project Gutenberg offers 74,238 free eBooks for Kindle, iPad, Nook, Android, and iPhone.
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/8 "2024-09-11T19:56:43Z")
Hearn was a full 300 years after the period of Shogun.
I don’t speak Portuguese, might he been using their terminology? But Japan is also 4 main islands. 3 of were recently (partially in some cases) conquered by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, integrating it into a semi-unified kingdom (Ryukyu would be much later). The X is often used for archipelagos.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/9 "2024-09-11T19:59:12Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#):
>
> I don’t speak Portuguese, might he been using their terminology? But Japan is also 4 main islands. 3 of were recently (partially in some cases) conquered by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, integrating it into a semi-unified kingdom (Ryukyu would be much later). The X is often used for archipelagos.
Four main islands, yes, but there are a few others. The number varies depending on who is counting and on what constitutes a countable island.
> **[List of islands of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_Japan)**
>
> Japan is an island country of 14,125 islands, of which approximately 260 are inhabited. Japan is the fourth-largest island country in the world, behind Indonesia, Madagascar, and Papua New Guinea. Japan is also the second-most-populous island country in the world, only behind Indonesia.
> According to a survey conducted by the Japan Coast Guard in 1987, the number of islands in Japan was 6,852. At that time, the survey only counted islands with coastlines of 100 meters or more that were shown on...
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### Author:  [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/10 "2024-09-12T13:45:31Z")
Of course, wasn’t Indonesia typically referred to as “The Indies”?
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/11 "2024-09-12T14:03:05Z")
What exactly does it say about Japan being called “the Japans”? Does your cite claim it was the preferred term or that at least one person has said that at least once in history? There is a difference.
I haven’t heard of this over the years, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Most of the historical sources I’ve read start in the 1850s. For example, in 1953, Commodore Matthew Perry lead his ships into Tokyo Bay (but called Edo Bay at the time), he brought a letter addressed to the Emperor of Japan.
The term “Japan” has also been documented earlier.
[From wik](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan)i
> [@](#):
>
> In 1577 it was first recorded in English, spelled _Giapan_ .
Looking at google books, while there seem to be a few instances in “The Japans” appearing in print, “Japan” is much more prevalent, but google books isn’t necessarily that reliable.
I think it has to be better established that Japan was actually called “The Japans” before the question can be asked why the change.
Perhaps the producers felt the “The Japans” would make it seem more historic without necessarily being accurate.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/12 "2024-09-12T14:22:34Z")
I also found reference to a 1585 book published in Portuguese and is said to be the first European description of Japan. The book refers to Japan as Japão.
This is a modern book in English examing the historical book
> **[The First European Description of Japan, 1585: A Critical English-Language...](https://www.routledge.com/The-First-European-Description-of-Japan-1585-A-Critical-English-Language-Edition-of-Striking-Contrasts-in-the-Customs-of-Europe-and-Japan-by/Reff-FroisSJ-Danford/p/book/9781138643321?srsltid=AfmBOooRUhoHodLnN_jgr9MQAHfxNeCWVY6yqrbh9mumB2YI9qu44pgd)**
>
> In 1585, at the height of Jesuit missionary activity in Japan, which was begun by Francis Xavier in 1549, Luis Frois, a long-time missionary in Japan, drafted the earliest systematic comparison of Western and Japanese cultures. This book constitutes...
From the book:
> [@](#):
>
> Little more was heard of Cipangu until 1549, when Francis Xavier initiated a sustained Jesuit commentary on what was now referred to as _Japão_ .
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/13 "2024-09-12T14:27:15Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> What exactly does it say about Japan being called “the Japans”? Does your cite claim it was the preferred term or that at least one person has said that at least once in history? There is a difference.
I think this is what I had looked at:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1c76agz/is\_there\_a\_reason\_someone\_would\_call\_japan\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1c76agz/is_there_a_reason_someone_would_call_japan_the/)
Yeah, it’s only a Reddit discussion, so not exactly an authoritative source, although one viewer did point to **[this Google Ngram result](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=japanese+empire%2Cthe+japans%2C+the+empire+of+japan&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3)** showing that “the japans” isn’t a new thing that was just made up for Shogun. They note that the use of the single word “Japan” by itself occurs several hundred times more often than the aforementioned variants, which is why it was left out of that Ngram. The earliest appearance in writing looks to be the early 1800s, but it had considerably more appearances between 1880 and 1940, especially compared to “the empire of japan” and “japanese empire”.
“The Japans” is not mentioned on this Wikipedia page:
> **[Names of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan)**
>
> The word Japan is an exonym, and is used (in one form or another) by many languages. The Japanese names for Japan are Nihon (にほんⓘ) and Nippon (にっぽんⓘ). They are both written in Japanese using the kanji 日本.
> Since the third century, Chinese called the people of the Japanese archipelago something like "ˀWâ" (倭), which can also mean "dwarf" or "submissive".: 4–6 Japanese scribes found fault with its offensive connotation, and officially changed the characters they used to spell the native name fo...
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/14 "2024-09-12T14:32:43Z")
Just for reference, the endonym for the nation has been singular for as long as recorded history.
So if what the natives call themselves matters, a pluralized name is incorrect.
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/15 "2024-09-12T14:40:25Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> Just for reference, the endonym for the nation has been singular for as long as recorded history.
The difficulty arises when distinguishing the geographical collection of islands from the nation. Do the Japanese have a word for the collection of islands? I’ve seen “home islands” in English, but not sure of its authenticity.
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### Author:  [@Tokushizu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tokushizu)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/16 "2024-09-12T14:49:19Z")
As someone who lived in various parts of Japan on and off for approximately 20 and who is fluent in written & spoken Japanese, I would say they refer to it as “日本列島” which translates to the Japanese archipelago. There are surely other ways in which they refer to it, but the example I gave is quite common.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese\_archipelago](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_archipelago)
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/17 "2024-09-12T14:57:33Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> Yeah, it’s only a Reddit discussion, so not exactly an authoritative source . . .
So essentially nothing.
Unless I’m missing something, ISTM that the question can be restated as:
> [@](#):
>
> A few people, at one time or another, used “The Japans” to referr to the country universally known as Japan. Why didn’t that ever catch on?
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### Author:  [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/18 "2024-09-12T15:48:06Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> Commodore Matthew Perry lead his ships into Tokyo Bay
I hope he stopped off at a Chandlers before making such a long sea journey.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/19 "2024-09-12T17:23:56Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> Just for reference, the endonym for the nation has been singular for as long as recorded history.
Japanese (the language) doesn’t even have plural forms of wirds.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [September 12, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japan-why-not-the-japans/1007122/20 "2024-09-12T17:35:13Z")
Is your assertion that Japanese has no way to express plurality? Such a claim would definitely reinforce the idea that Japanese citizens think of their nation singularly, since apparently they can’t think of it any other way, so a pluralized version of rhe country’s name would be even more foreign and inauthentic.
But of course, that claim is silly, so I’m going to assume you’re just fixated on the idea that plurality has to be inherent to the noun form itself, instead of being phrasal, which is how plurality is actually expressed in Japanese.
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