# Japanes Writing, The Last Samurai, And My Brother's Tattoo **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985 "2005-08-21T15:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/1 "2005-08-21T15:03:18Z")
Hey All, I’m hoping someone can tell me if my brother is about to make a fool of himself or not. He’s been studying karate for a number of years, is testing for his black-belt soon, and is thinking of getting himself a tattoo to celebrate his accomplishments. What he wants to get permanantly inscribed on his forearm is a series of japanese characters that he learned from the Special Features disc of the DVD of the Tom Cruise movie [The Last Samurai](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325710/) . My questions are, do the characters really mean what they say they mean in the movie? Will getting them tattooed on his arm somehow change the context of the meaning in a way that will embarass him (and, by association, me!)? I’ve heard stories before about people getting tattoos that don’t mean what they think. The characters, their meanings according to the film, and the order in which they appear, are as follows (click for image, hosted by [imageshack.net](http://imageshack.net)): [Duty & Loyalty](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9620/01dutyandloyalty6yv.jpg) [Justice & Morality](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6412/02justiceandmorality6gm.jpg) [Complete Sincerity](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2065/03completesincerity0cs.jpg) [Polite Courtesy](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7267/04politecourtesy7fh.jpg) [Compassion](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6492/05compassion3uw.jpg) [Heroic Courage](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6530/06heoriccourage3nh.jpg) [Honor](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4426/07honor5al.jpg) Can anyone tell me if these are what they appear to be? Thanks very much for any help, thwartme ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/2 "2005-08-21T16:11:42Z")
Sounds like he’s about to make a fool of himself whether they mean what the DVD says they mean. First of all, he’s getting a tattoo based on something he saw on a DVD of a Tom Cruise movie? That’s foolish. If you’re going to bother with a tattoo, which is a permanent marking on your skin, shouldn’t you take the time to make sure it’s unique and personal? Second, would anyone get these words inscribed on their arms in English? No, because it’s stupid. Well, it’s equally stupid (if not stupider) to do so in a language you can’t read. Please don’t let your brother be stupid. It’s just not the SDMB way. ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/3 "2005-08-21T16:13:27Z")
ARGH. That’s “whether they mean what the DVD says they mean **or not**.” Preview is my friend… ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/4 "2005-08-21T16:32:50Z")
Yeah, Asian character tattoos are almost uniformly a Bad Idea. Even if they mean what you think they mean, getting a bunch of random words inscribed on you seems, well, a little silly. Also, there’s something a little offensive about the idea of them; they’re exoticizing non-Western culture to make up for the fact that many Americans live in a culture vacuum, so we feel the need to steal other people’s culture. Many Asian-Americans don’t like the idea of non-Asians getting these tattoos, and I have to say that I agree with them. (P.S. I have one of these tattoos and regret it, I’m really glad it’s not someplace visible like, say, my forearm. A cover-up is in planning stages.) ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/5 "2005-08-21T17:05:47Z")
Any time you have to double check with someone else if your tattoo means what you think it means, it’s probably a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/6 "2005-08-21T17:19:32Z")
Cool, I get that if you have to ask, it might be best to just not bother. But he’s probably going to go ahead with this unless someone specifically says “that’s not what that means.” Can anyone do an independant translation? Thanks, thwartme ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/7 "2005-08-21T17:28:17Z")
> [@Grelby](#): > > Sounds like he’s about to make a fool of himself whether they mean what the DVD says they mean. First of all, he’s getting a tattoo based on something he saw on a DVD of a Tom Cruise movie? That’s foolish. If you’re going to bother with a tattoo, which is a permanent marking on your skin, shouldn’t you take the time to make sure it’s unique and personal? An awful lot of people get tattoos so whatever he picks probably isn’t going to be all that unique. A tattoo can be completely unoriginal and still have personal meaning to whoever gets it. I’m trying to pick a college major right now and I’m leaning towards Classical Studies or history of the middle ages. Let’s say I get my degree in Classical Studies and I decide to get a tattoo of Athena in full armor on my back. Is it original? Nah, I’d be copying an image I’ve already seen from several different sources. Would it be meaningful to me? Sure, I’d be marking a milestone in my academic career plus the goddess of war and wisdom is pretty darn cool. > [@](#): > > Second, would anyone get these words inscribed on their arms in English? No, because it’s stupid. Well, it’s equally stupid (if not stupider) to do so in a language you can’t read. Please don’t let your brother be stupid. It’s just not the SDMB way. That’s not much of an arguement in my opinion. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/8 "2005-08-21T17:30:36Z")
> [@thwartme](#): > > What he wants to get permanantly inscribed on his forearm is a series of japanese characters that he learned from the Special Features disc of the DVD of the Tom Cruise movie [The Last Samurai](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325710/) . It really isn’t my place to tell someone they’re tattoo is foolish or not but I do have a suggestion. When I took photography many years ago I would hang my pictures up for about a week or so. If I still enjoyed looking at the picture after a week or so then I’d make a few good prints of it to go into my archive. I suggest he does something similiar with the tattoo he wants. He should also talk to the tattoo artist and take his suggestions seriously. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/9 "2005-08-21T18:16:33Z")
You know how [engrish.com](http://www.engrish.com) mocks the Japanese at their misuse of Roman words that they really don’t understand? [Hanzi Smatter](http://www.hanzismatter.com/) does the same for those folks that don’t understand Japanese and Chinese characters. Don’t let your brother become a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/10 "2005-08-21T18:28:30Z")
I know several people that have words like the Kanji he’s hoping to get inscribed, in english, on their bodies. They feel they are virtues worth trying to live up to. The Tattoo’s are a reminder of that for them. I have 2 Kanji tats, one on each upper arm, one for death, one for life (actually, ‘to live’, but it’s close enough for me). They have a rather profound meaning to me, both the tats themselves, and the periods of my life in which I got them. If they make him happy, and as long as he doesn’t get them in a place he can’t cover for job interviews, he’s all set. I do love the irony of getting a tattoo to celebrate an achievment in Japanese arts, a culture that does not approve of Tattooing in general. Hehehe… ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/11 "2005-08-21T18:36:24Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#): > > You know how [engrish.com](http://www.engrish.com) mocks the Japanese at their misuse of Roman words that they really don’t understand? [Hanzi Smatter](http://www.hanzismatter.com/) does the same for those folks that don’t understand Japanese and Chinese characters. Don’t let your brother become a victim. Heh! Hanzi Smatter is a great site. Schmucks who screw up in their pathetic attempt to appear deep and spiritual and exotic deserve a hearty round of mocking when they (or their tattoo artist) screw up. ---
**Author:** ![RobuSensei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/919ad9/32.png) [@RobuSensei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobuSensei)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/12 "2005-08-21T19:52:06Z")
Let me add my voice to the chorus of those who are saying, “don’t [let him] do this.” I agree with the reasons already stated. Also, given that some of these kanji are complicated, unless your brother’s tattoo artist has knowledge of how to write kanji, odds are they’ll be written incorrectly. That being said, using a movie DVD as a source can be risky as well. If I were your brother, I’d just go with [this](http://www.hanzismatter.com/2005/08/five-confucian-virtues.html) well-known kanji compound of five Confucian ideals _(jingireichishin,_ representing benevolence, justice, courtesy, wisdom and sincerity). But still, I recommend NOT doing it. Show your brother this quote from [pinyn.info](http://pinyin.info/news/index.php?p=112) by way of Hanzi Smatter: > [@pinyin.info](#): > > **I want to get a tattoo with kanji / Chinese characters. What do you recommend?** > > This is probably not what you want to hear: Don’t get the tattoo. Most tattoos with Chinese characters are seriously flawed. > The chances of you getting something that looks good – and not just to you but also to others, including the hundreds of millions of people who can actually read Chinese characters and know how they’re supposed to look – are quite low. > > Moreover, tattoos of Chinese characters are seldom written properly or represent a correct, idiomatic translation of the wearer’s desired meaning. On the other hand, the chances of you ending up looking more or less like a fool – at least to those who know Chinese characters – are uncomfortably high. > > These are important considerations, given that you would need to go through pain and expense to have someone permanently stain your skin with an image that very likely will be done wrong in some important way. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/13 "2005-08-21T23:39:39Z")
Disclaimer: I can read Chinese, not Japanese. I’ll be providing the Chinese meanings for the words below, copied from [http://zhongwen.com/](http://zhongwen.com/)[/url[ [Duty & Loyalty](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9620/01dutyandloyalty6yv.jpg) - (adj.) loyal, faithful, devoted [Justice & Morality](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6412/02justiceandmorality6gm.jpg) - (adj.) dignified, proper; (n.) justice [Complete Sincerity](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2065/03completesincerity0cs.jpg) - (adj.) sincere (Also used by the Shinsengumi as their motto.) [Polite Courtesy](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7267/04politecourtesy7fh.jpg) - (n.) rite, ceremony; decorum, propriety; gift [Compassion](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6492/05compassion3uw.jpg) - (n.) love, benevolence [Heroic Courage](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6530/06heoriccourage3nh.jpg) - (adj.) brave [Honor](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4426/07honor5al.jpg) - (n.) honor, reputation IIRC, these are actually the traditional samurai values, so they’re not too bad as tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/14 "2005-08-21T23:45:42Z")
> [@RobuSensei](#): > > Moreover, tattoos of Chinese characters are seldom written properly or represent a correct, idiomatic translation of the wearer’s desired meaning. On the other hand, the chances of you ending up looking more or less like a fool – at least to those who know Chinese characters – are uncomfortably high. My former best friend is Chinese-American and fluent in Mandarin. Once at an event for her school, she caught sight of a tattoo on her classmate’s shoulder. She gently asked her classmate if she knew what it meant. The girl said, “Yeah, it means [blah blah, now I don’t remember].” My friend, clearly now wishing she hadn’t got into the conversation in the first place, said “Welllll…it could mean that, in context with some other characters. As it is, it doesn’t really mean anything at all.” The girl just shrugged, she didn’t seem to care. I once wrote out a Hebrew phrase from Song of Songs for a classmate (he and his wife wanted to get matching tattoos). It’s a good thing I’m nice, I guess, I could have written just about anything, and he wouldn’t have known the difference. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/15 "2005-08-21T23:52:34Z")
> [@thwartme](#): > > The characters, their meanings according to the film, and the order in which they appear, are as follows (click for image, hosted by [imageshack.net](http://imageshack.net)): > > [Duty & Loyalty](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9620/01dutyandloyalty6yv.jpg) > [Justice & Morality](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6412/02justiceandmorality6gm.jpg) > [Complete Sincerity](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2065/03completesincerity0cs.jpg) > [Polite Courtesy](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7267/04politecourtesy7fh.jpg) > [Compassion](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6492/05compassion3uw.jpg) > [Heroic Courage](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6530/06heoriccourage3nh.jpg) > [Honor](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4426/07honor5al.jpg) > > Can anyone tell me if these are what they appear to be? They all mean what the DVD claims they do, although the English translations are a bit “poetic.” I’d usually translate yu as just bravery, rather than “heroic courage,” for example. But they aren’t wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/16 "2005-08-22T00:04:09Z")
The primary concerns I would have with getting a kanji tattoo would be those already voiced in this thread (the skill of the artist and the likelihood of having a mistake permanently inked onto my body) and the limitations placed upon those who have tattoos in Japan (some hotels and baths won’t allow anyone with tattoos to come in, since tattoo = yakuza in many minds). ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/17 "2005-08-22T00:06:22Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Many Asian-Americans don’t like the idea of non-Asians getting these tattoos Well, let’s hope that these Asian-Americans who are so in touch with their culture don’t adopt any European dress, habits, or languages. What hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/18 "2005-08-22T00:46:59Z")
(Warning: possibly enhanced anecdote follows.) My sisteer-in-law has a Kanji tattoo. She got it because she thought it looked cool. Some time later, she made friends with a woman from japan, showed her the tattoo, and asked what it meant. The friend answered, “longevity.” “All right,” said my sister-in-law. “Longevity is cool!” “No it isn’t,” said her friend. “It’s something we would stamp on a piece of furniture or a wooden box.” I wasn’t present for the conversation, but I do know my sister-in-law gets embarassed whenever we talk about tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/19 "2005-08-22T02:09:31Z")
Thanks to everyone for their views, and especially to **dotchan** and **cckerberos** for double-checking the translations. I’ll pass the info on to my brother. As for myself, I don’t think he should get the tattoo. I agree with **kyla** , that if you have to double-check with someone else, it’s probably not a good idea. But he really likes the meaning, the look and the signifigance of the characters, so whatever. The primary difference between my brother and I on this is that I can’t think of anything I feel is so cool that I’d want it on my skin forever. Oh well. I’ll pass on some of the comments from here, as well as the alternate translations provided by **dotchan** , and leave the choice up to him. I’ve suggested that he leave any decision until after he gets his Black Belt, which may not be until next spring (or later, if he fails to qualify, I suppose.) Maybe by then he’ll have thought of some other form of commemoration for the event. Thanks, thwartme ---
**Author:** ![JpnDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/20 "2005-08-22T02:19:52Z")
I’m not here to judge whether he should get a tattoo or not. Or whether it is wise to get one with Chinese/Japanese characters, as had been the trend the last few years. However, if your brother does go through with it, make sure that someone who KNOWS HOW TO WRITE/DRAW/ILLUSTRATE kanji does the tattooing. I’ve seen quite a few folks with these tattoos that were obviously drawn by tattoo artists who just copied what they saw on a piece of paper. Doesn’t look very nice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985.md?page=2)