# Japanes Writing, The Last Samurai, And My Brother's Tattoo **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985 "2005-08-21T15:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/21 "2005-08-22T04:41:25Z")
> [@Grelby](#): > > Second, would anyone get these words inscribed on their arms in English? No, because it’s stupid. Well, it’s equally stupid (if not stupider) to do so in a language you can’t read. Please don’t let your brother be stupid. It’s just not the SDMB way. [Fuck You.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/1-5cav.htm) That regimental crest graces my right shoulder (exactly where a combat patch would be on an Army uniform), overlaying the red-and-white Cavalry ensign. I find nothing stupid or stupider about the virtues of Loyalty, or Courage. Note that this isn’t an endorsement for the OP’s brother to get a tattoo, and I’ll readily second **Tristan’s** advice. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/22 "2005-08-22T05:26:26Z")
If I ever decide to get a tattoo in an Asian language, it will simply be my own name, transliterated into Japanese, and represented with _katakana_ rather than kanji. Rik = Rikku = ??? My full name was translated for me by two different Japanese women, twenty years apart, and both came up with the same thing, so I know it’s correct. (Besides, it’s not hard to use a chart to compare the katakana symbols and their romaji equivalents.) ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/23 "2005-08-22T05:27:30Z")
Dammit, why won’t my katakana show up when I post it here? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/24 "2005-08-22T05:53:11Z")
> [@thwartme](#): > > [Duty & Loyalty](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9620/01dutyandloyalty6yv.jpg) > [Justice & Morality](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6412/02justiceandmorality6gm.jpg) > [Complete Sincerity](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2065/03completesincerity0cs.jpg) > [Polite Courtesy](http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7267/04politecourtesy7fh.jpg) > [Compassion](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6492/05compassion3uw.jpg) > [Heroic Courage](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6530/06heoriccourage3nh.jpg) > [Honor](http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4426/07honor5al.jpg) Chu is fine (serious about something) Gi is fine (law and order) Makoto is a bit funky–it can be a person’s name and it can be used in common speach like “Indeed. Indeed.” ( 誠。誠。 ) Rei also strikes me as being slightly funky. In the 5-character set grouping that **RobuSensei** pointed out, it’s fine because it’s a set grouping. But otherwise iit’s a very common word. Like “Little Billy, you say ‘thank you!’” ( ビリーちゃん、礼を言いなさい！ ) Jin seems fine, I don’t see it by itself often and it is in the confusian 5-character grouping. Yu (brave) is fine–though it personally strikes me as being a bit pompous. “Hey everyone, I’m brave!” Meiyo, I could swear, commonly means an honorable _past_. Where we’re talking less about living an honorable life, and more of a certain event having occured honorably and becoming famous for that. “He went down in honor!” However, assuming **dotchan** is correct and " these are actually the traditional samurai values" then “they’re not too bad as tattoos.” But that’s because they are historically meaningful. The above comments though are about the common usage in _present day_ Japan. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/25 "2005-08-22T08:45:33Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Makoto is a bit funky–it can be a person’s name and it can be used in common speach like “Indeed. Indeed.” ( 誠。誠。 ) There’s nothing funky about makoto. In fact, it strikes me as being one of the better choices there for a tattoo. As **dotchan** mentioned, the Shinsengumi carried very well-known banners emblazoned with the character. What you’ve mentioned for makoto and rei are the modern common _spoken_ usage for the words. I think when just written by themselves that they are seen in a totally different context by most Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/26 "2005-08-22T09:45:46Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > There’s nothing funky about makoto. In fact, it strikes me as being one of the better choices there for a tattoo. As **dotchan** mentioned, the Shinsengumi carried very well-known banners emblazoned with the character. What you’ve mentioned for makoto and rei are the modern common _spoken_ usage for the words. Shinsengumi were the bad guys. But, indeed, as I noted I was referring to the modern, spoken usage for these. > [@](#): > > I think when just written by themselves that they are seen in a totally different context by most Japanese. Perhaps. I am not Japanese. But most Japanese these days, I would contend, just aren’t all that philosophical. Certainly they would understand that the characters have _had_ greater meanings–but I don’t think it will have the power for them that it would have in 1850 when kids were brought up learning how to write kanji with brushes, kill people, and lead a moral life all by the same teacher. The words themselves have only as much meaning as the people who understand them have the capacity or willingness to impart on them. Most won’t. So, if he cares about the historic meanings of the words, I would say that he needs to first be able to draw the characters with a brush and have received lectures from his teacher on the values and why the peculiarities of his school’s style have come into being, based on those values, and so on. Otherwise, if he doesn’t have any greater understanding of them than what a modern day dictionary says and yet is willing to embed them in his flesh–I see no reason to feel that 99% of anyone looking at them who understands them will have greater feelings towards nor comprehension of the characters than he. And for these people, their comprehension will come from daily use, not Yoshida Shoin. ---
**Author:** ![Hokkaido\_Brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d26b3c/32.png) [@Hokkaido\_Brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hokkaido_Brit)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/27 "2005-08-22T09:56:45Z")
I have just returned from England, where my Japanese husband was absolutely appalled at the tattoos he saw everywhere. Japanese people in general think only the lowest of the low get tattoos. Though you are obviously not in Japan, nor Japanese, and your cultural values set on tattoos are of course very different, if you are considering getting a kanji, you might want to consider how Japanese people might perceive you as a result… His attitude was “what is the point of putting words like honor or duty or bravery on your body in such a shameless and vulgar way?” This is only one person’s opinion of course, but I have heard him discussing it with his mates, and they all have much the same opinion… And on a funny note, we saw a woman with the kanji for “Asia” and “law, or the way” on her shoulder. I guess she was trying to express “the way of the orient” or something but the characters read “Aho” or “Asshole”. My husband laughed his head off, and so did I! ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/28 "2005-08-22T10:21:52Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Shinsengumi were the bad guys. > > But, indeed, as I noted I was referring to the modern, spoken usage for these. Well, they were pro-bakufu, but I don’t know if they’re necessarily viewed as “the bad guys” by most Japanese. They’re certainly very popular, and I think that they’re viewed as having been noble. I inserted the word **spoken** , which you had not included. In my experience, there’s a huge difference between spoken and written Japanese, and tattoos would definitely fall in the latter category. > [@](#): > > Perhaps. I am not Japanese. But most Japanese these days, I would contend, just aren’t all that philosophical. Certainly they would understand that the characters have _had_ greater meanings–but I don’t think it will have the power for them that it would have in 1850 when kids were brought up learning how to write kanji with brushes, kill people, and lead a moral life all by the same teacher. > The words themselves have only as much meaning as the people who understand them have the capacity or willingness to impart on them. Most won’t. I think you’re highly exaggerating the obscurity of the broader meanings for these characters. They haven’t faded into the mists of history. I would expect any of my junior high school students to understand makoto. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/29 "2005-08-22T11:35:51Z")
> [@Hokkaido Brit](#): > > I have just returned from England, where my Japanese husband was absolutely appalled at the tattoos he saw everywhere. Japanese people in general think only the lowest of the low get tattoos. Plenty of people in the US think the same thing. > [@](#): > > Though you are obviously not in Japan, nor Japanese, and your cultural values set on tattoos are of course very different, if you are considering getting a kanji, you might want to consider how Japanese people might perceive you as a result… It’s been my experience that most people who get tattoos don’t care what you or I think about them. > [@](#): > > His attitude was “what is the point of putting words like honor or duty or bravery on your body in such a shameless and vulgar way?” Different strokes and all that. I don’t understand why people get memorial tattoos but they do it anyway. Marc ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/30 "2005-08-22T12:27:23Z")
First, Moderator Speaketh: **Ex Tank** , your use of “Fuck You” directed at another poster is inconsistent with the rules of being well-mannered and polite and not insulting other posters in this forum. Having said that, I’m not recording this anywhere, because **Grelby** ’s choice of words was, ah, less than tactful. So, this is a gentle reminder to everyone that personal insults are not permitted in this forum. Now, on the personal level: **thwartme** , how old is your brother? One test I have used when people talk about tatoos is: if you had got a tatoo five years ago, what would it have been? would you still want that on your body now? Often, people find that their taste and life style have changed, and the tatoo that they thought was cool five years ago (like “My Pretty Pony”) isn’t anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/31 "2005-08-22T12:35:53Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > I think you’re highly exaggerating the obscurity of the broader meanings for these characters. They haven’t faded into the mists of history. I would expect any of my junior high school students to understand makoto. By college, to-the-person, every single fellow Japanese student at ICU in Tokyo had absolutely no memory of anything they had ever learned in history nor literature classes before that date. I would bet you that in 1850, any militarily inclined young (15yo?) samurai could have written a 5 page essay on the meaning of makoto without the need to do any research, right there, on the spot. Try it as a pop quiz: No forewarning, not allowed to use any references, and only one day to write it. I would be willing to bet…well, public disgrace that anything you got would be repetitious drivel and come down to, “Because I am Japanese and makoto is a great tradition of Japan.” I.e. → because that’s what I was told to say when asked a question like this. I do agree that modern Japanese are good at their willingness to insist that they understand and hold very highly the culture of their people, but if you quiz them on it–you’ll just find that: 1. Generally you (whitey) know more about their history than they do 2. They get really pissed that you aren’t willing to believe that “spiritually” they understand it all, even though it’s clear that they have never retained a thing about any of it except that “it is Japanese, and you are Japanese, and thus it is great.” Just dissing the surgical masks for sick people for having no scientific backing can get you chewed out. “Japanese companies sell surgical masks to sick people, and they are Japanese, and thus it is good. You can never understand.” …friendly. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![thwartme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@thwartme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thwartme)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/32 "2005-08-22T14:26:28Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Now, on the personal level: **thwartme** , how old is your brother? One test I have used when people talk about tatoos is: if you had got a tatoo five years ago, what would it have been? would you still want that on your body now? Often, people find that their taste and life style have changed, and the tatoo that they thought was cool five years ago (like “My Pretty Pony”) isn’t anymore. My brother is 44, and he’s been working towards this black belt for about ten years. I guess I should be clear - the idea that getting this tattoo is anything other than absolutely cool is entirely mine. My brother has no hesitation. He figures he knows what the characters mean, he likes the look of them, done deal. Basically what I’m afraid of is the situation that **Hokkaido Brit** described. Although I call my brother an a\*\*hole all the time, I still wouldn’t want him to have it printed on his body. thwartme ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/33 "2005-08-23T02:17:54Z")
I stopped a friend from getting a character a la Sporty Spice a while back, and I bring it up every so often when I feel she doesn’t appreciate me as much as she should. Can’t say I’m a fan of the Japanese writing thing, for pretty much all the reasons above (though I’m not sure they’re that much worse than “Mom,” and I’ve never heard an Asian friend complain about the tatts more than a non-Asian friend). Why not convince him to get just one of the symbols and wait a year, then add to it? ---
**Author:** ![Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eada6e/32.png) [@Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_You_Big_Red_Fire_Engine)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/34 "2005-08-23T03:37:17Z")
I have a friend (who is terminally ill and will die very soon) and they got a passage from the bible (some passage about death I believe) in Arabic. The writing doesn’t look too bad to me, but I imagine it would be horrible to someone who could actually read the language. Moral: If he is going to get it done, get it by someone who actually knows the language he is getting it done. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/35 "2005-08-23T14:22:50Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Well, let’s hope that these Asian-Americans who are so in touch with their culture don’t adopt any European dress, habits, or languages. What hypocrisy. It’s not hypocrisy. It’s offense at a westerner trying to appropriate elements of their culture in an arbitrary way without bothering to understand that culture. It’s offense at having elements of one’s culture trivialised and treated as theme-park souvenirs. Non-westerners adopt European dress, habits, or languages for practical reasons and out of economic necessity in competing in a global arena. Of course, non-westerners also engage in this sort of cultural trivialisation, which is why you get the [engrish.com](http://engrish.com) mockery. I should think it would be important for such a tattoo-wearer to know that to the people who can actually read his tattoo, he’s gonna look like a maroon. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/36 "2005-08-23T15:26:15Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > Many Asian-Americans don’t like the idea of non-Asians getting these tattoos, and I have to say that I agree with them. I am Asian, albeit Indian, my boyfriend is Chinese. And we don’t care, as long as it’s done tastefully. 🙂 But then I feel that way about all tattoos. While I’m here, I should point out that I think white people often look way prettier in Indian dress then Indian people do sometimes! The colors are so bright and beautiful, and pale skin sets it off marvelously. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/37 "2005-08-23T15:29:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I should think it would be important for such a tattoo-wearer to know that to the people who can actually read his tattoo, he’s gonna look like a maroon. 'Course, at 44 years old he’s earned the right. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/38 "2005-08-23T16:05:20Z")
**Tristan** > [@](#): > > I know several people that have words like the Kanji he’s hoping to get inscribed, in english, on their bodies. They feel they are virtues worth trying to live up to. The Tattoo’s are a reminder of that for them. So what do you think of those of us who hold those values in the same high regard, but don’t need tattoos to remind us? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985/39 "2005-08-23T16:15:59Z")
An article relating to this whole thing. [Think twice before tattooing.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050823/hl_nm/tattoo_dc) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanes-writing-the-last-samurai-and-my-brothers-tattoo/317985.md?page=1)