# Japanese culture experts, help me decode this situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 31, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170 "2009-12-31T07:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/41 "2010-01-02T08:22:15Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > I don’t think it’s exactly that. That would be similar to me expecting everyone back in the U.S. to like and care about me, and I know that will never happen. I just ran into a situation where I wasn’t sure if I was misinterpreting something. I’ll accept that some people just don’t want to deal with me. I think it’s their loss, but whatever. 99.9% of people I’ve interacted with in Japan have been very friendly and helpful. > > And yes, I grew up in a very rural place back in the U.S. I’m very familiar with xenophobic attitudes that people can have in such places just because they have never dealt with people outside of their area. I think it’s stupid if someone assumes that there aren’t people in the Americas or Europe that have similar attitudes that we’re attributing to Asians. Some of the things I’ve even heard from my own family’s mouths make me cringe. I guess your milage may vary, but as far as I’ve ever heard, it’s _not_ the same. Have you ever heard any of the yokels at home claim that they cannot digest non-American food because they belong to a race whose [intestines are longer](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=japanese+intestines+longer&aq=0&oq=japanese+intestines&aqi=g1) than the rest of humanity? Or would you look down on you, when you get home, because you’ve acquired a taint of foreignness from your travels – to the extent that you might have a bit of trouble getting a job? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/42 "2010-01-02T09:47:18Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I guess your milage may vary, but as far as I’ve ever heard, it’s _not_ the same. Have you ever heard any of the yokels at home claim that they cannot digest non-American food because they belong to a race whose [intestines are longer](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=japanese+intestines+longer&aq=0&oq=japanese+intestines&aqi=g1) than the rest of humanity? Or would you look down on you, when you get home, because you’ve acquired a taint of foreignness from your travels – to the extent that you might have a bit of trouble getting a job? Koxinga, have you ever lived in Japan and/or speak Japanese? With all due respect, I think you’re projecting some stereotypes and not really helping the OP with filtering what happened. Having lived and worked in Japan, China,Taiwan, HK and the US, IMHO the experience in \*any \*one of those countries is at best marginally useful to help decode an experience like the OP’s in a different country. I think Tokyo Player pretty much nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/43 "2010-01-02T12:40:02Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > I might hate them and vomit, but I want to be able to tell that for myself. The only wagashi that I can recommend are ichigo daifuku and warabimochi. If you don’t like anko, you’re not going to like almost anything they have. ---
**Author:** ![EnginNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ea924/32.png) [@EnginNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnginNerd)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/44 "2010-01-02T15:36:59Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > The only wagashi that I can recommend are ichigo daifuku and warabimochi. If you don’t like anko, you’re not going to like almost anything they have. I think I’ve had daifuku with anko and I did like it (but I might be remembering incorrectly what it was…) So far I’ve only had one thing here in Japan that I haven’t been able to finish eating (but I don’t even remember what it was called - it was some random pastry thing I picked up off the shelf at Jusco) ---
**Author:** ![EnginNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ea924/32.png) [@EnginNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnginNerd)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/45 "2010-01-02T15:38:06Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I guess your milage may vary, but as far as I’ve ever heard, it’s _not_ the same. Have you ever heard any of the yokels at home claim that they cannot digest non-American food because they belong to a race whose [intestines are longer](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=japanese+intestines+longer&aq=0&oq=japanese+intestines&aqi=g1) than the rest of humanity? Or would you look down on you, when you get home, because you’ve acquired a taint of foreignness from your travels – to the extent that you might have a bit of trouble getting a job? Nah, just minor things like that other nationalities have smaller brains or some other such nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/46 "2010-01-02T15:56:19Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > But today an entire family of 4 stopped in the middle of a crowded sidewalk in front of me. There was a wall on one side and a short fence on the other; going around wasn’t an option and there were throngs of people behind me as well. So I shrugged and just walked right into them on purpose without even trying to slow down or squeeze through and then kept going. I saw the teenage girl about to say something and looked at me and just stopped. In a situation like that, I’d make the standard (at least in Tokyo) hand-chopping motion and saying "すいません、すいません。。。” while continuing to walk through, to express a modicum of courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![EnginNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ea924/32.png) [@EnginNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnginNerd)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/47 "2010-01-02T16:41:06Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > In a situation like that, I’d make the standard (at least in Tokyo) hand-chopping motion and saying "すいません、すいません。。。” while continuing to walk through, to express a modicum of courtesy. Oh, I’m aware of what I’m _supposed_ to do in that situation. But they weren’t paying attention to what they were doing or anyone around them so I decided to repay the favor. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/48 "2010-01-02T19:31:21Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > Oh, I’m aware of what I’m _supposed_ to do in that situation. But they weren’t paying attention to what they were doing or anyone around them so I decided to repay the favor. I completely understand what you’re saying, but you never know when you’re going to come across the same people again, so I always err on the side of courtesy, if only perfunctorily, especially when surrounded by a culture other than my own. Also, you probably don’t want to get to be known as the rude gaijin in town. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/49 "2010-01-03T05:46:48Z")
Some friends were over for pizza last night, so I asked them their experiences. One guy is from Bangladesh, so he is a “brown” Asian. His wife and the other friend are Chinese. All of us are long-term (15 to 20 year plus) residents. I’ve lived in Japan for more than 20 years, the first time in 1981, so over an almost 30-year period. In all of that, I’ve been refused entrance one time, to a “fashion health” establishment in Sapporo in 1997, when my Japanese colleague, very drunk at the time, convinced me, also very drunk, to try one. They simply refused admittance to us. This is not unknown, if fact, it’s not rare that this form of seedy establishment won’t service foreigners, which in retrospect was just as well. (One American friend who used to frequent these establishments said that one reason they don’t allow non-Japanese is because there is a fine line on what is allowed there and not, and while Japanese know the lines, others may not.) Our Bengali friend said in his 20 years, he’s never been refused service anywhere. We have seen other forms of discrimination. He said he regularly was turned down, sight unseen, when applying for jobs through “Hello Work,” the Unemployment Office. The Hello Work person would call to set up an appointment, and would tell the company he is a foreigner. While he couldn’t hear the other person’s response, it would be obvious that he wasn’t getting the interview. Apparently, there are stores in Hokkaido, the northern island, which refuse admittance to foreigners, which seems to be linked to “problems” with Russian sailors, but I haven’t heard of that in Tokyo. Renting as a foreigner can be a nightmare. I still vividly remember looking for an apartment and having real estate agents not even look up from their newspapers when I would walk in. Fortunately, no one cared if I bought a house, though. I asked what their take was on the OP, and we had an interesting discussion. Our Shanghai friend, here for 15 years, thinks it’s more likely that the guy was just being blunt in his preconceived notion that he didn’t think a Western would like the _wagashi_, but wasn’t necessarily xenophobic. He could, and should, have been nicer about it, but she didn’t think he was being mean. In a reverse situation, I would know that almost all Japanese would not like black licorice. It tastes like medicine to them. The kind approach would be to say that most likely they won’t like it, but still offer to sell it. She also picked up on the “食べたことない人は食べられない" (People that haven’t eaten them can’t eat them.)”. I had wrote about that when I made my first response, but deleted it. The食べられない (can’t eat) is much weaker in Japanese than in English, which could be taken to mean you are forbidden to eat them, like your mother would say about the cake she made for the guests. That would be 食べてはいけない. His comment could be taken to be “You won’t like that.” Japanese tend to take more responsibility for what they sell. It would have been ok to respond back that you know you won’t like them, but you want to try anyway. If he then refuses to sell, you know that it’s discrimination. I find it interesting that people on a message board can be so sure of it being discrimination. In the more than 85 collective years here for the 5 non-Japanese adults last night, no one had heard of something similar. For an event that rare (obviously), any speculation of is simply that. **China Guy** , can you say more about the restaurants which you were unwelcome at? Were these small neighborhood places? Come to think of it, there have been a few places which have been cool toward me and whoever I was with, but those places were obviously not happy with any outsiders, not necessarily foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/50 "2010-01-03T06:02:29Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Laowai by the way is an honorific compared to the more blunt waiguoren. Laowai is used a lot more than 25 years ago. Apologies for hijacking, but what would laowai mean? “whitey”? “foreigner”? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/51 "2010-01-03T06:23:37Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > When we talked about it later my friend said that was nothing unusual even though he is fluent in Japanese many Japanese have an expectation he can only speak English and treat him as though he can’t speak their language. Oh hell yes. This is well known. TBH, whgen I have been in Japan or elsewhere I have gotten to the point too where I am surprised when a gaijin speaks Japanese. Even though mine is rusty from disuse for sure, there is still a cognitive dissonance. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/52 "2010-01-03T06:31:36Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > Someone did approach me randomly trying to sell me something in English and I just said, “すみません、英語がわかりません。” (I’m sorry, I don’t understand English). It was good for a laugh and then we both went about our own business. He knew you were lying. That is too textbook. I would have said (sorry for the romaji) something more like “sumimasen ga, eigo ga hanasenai n desu kedo …” (sorry but…I can’t speak English …). Note: that is probably only for male speakers if you try it…I’d guess females would change the the first “ga” to “wa” and the “n desu kedo” to "ne- " or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/53 "2010-01-03T06:40:11Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Laowai by the way is an honorific compared to the more blunt waiguoren. Laowai is used a lot more than 25 years ago. I was out in the countryside yesterday, and to my surprise I got [Gweilo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gweilo) all day. I thought that term went out of fashion with the Opium Wars! Things \*will \*change, and hopefully my presence in this town is a small step towards getting people to realize that foreigners are not an alien species. I can understand people who are surprised and curious- which I get among children, old people and people from the countryside. What bothers me is the edge of contempt that creeps into “laowai” when obviously educated city-folks in the 20’s and 30’s say it. Really, can you imagine for a moment a bunch of American college students in their twenties walking an Indian professor sitting in his office, yelling “OMG Dot Head!”, pointing, falling into giggles, and running away? It’s not the words, it’s the pointing and laughing. I’m in the sticks, but not _that far_ in the sticks. Most of these students have had foreign teachers in the past. In any case, pointing and laughing is not an acceptable way for grown adults to react to any human being, and call me a foreign imperialist, but I’m not going to pretend like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/54 "2010-01-03T06:41:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In any case, pointing and laughing is not an acceptable way for grown adults to react to any human being, and call me a foreign imperialist, but I’m not going to pretend like it is. Agreed. I think it’s one thing to come in and tell people how to act–it’s another thing to try to agree that we’re all human beings and we should behave as such. The whole, “Asians are just like that–they can’t change” seems even more patronizing than the “foreign imperialist” attitude, to me. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/55 "2010-01-03T06:43:47Z")
> [@EnginNerd](#): > > But the fact that I could read the 和菓子sign outside should have indicated that I’m at least familiar enough with the concept to know what I’m getting into. However, I guess if you live in this small neighborhood and don’t leave very often, it might not occur to you that it takes quite a bit of studying to get to the point where someone not from here can even read such a sign! It is not that hard to learn signs or basic kanji! My first trip to Japan I was visiting my sister who was an exchange student. I knew not a thing of the language, culture, or anything else. But I had some time the first week while she was in school, and I bought a standard book “Read Japanese Today”, got to reading it on the train, and in a few days amazed my sister and her American and Japanese friends at being able to read the signs on stores and even the names on the fronts of houses in many many cases. Any true “Enginerd” worth his salt should be able to pull that stunt off. I wonder how much cultural training you had to go with your language training though. Japanese is a high context language. You are just expected to know stuff, in both directions. I think it would be extremely aggressive, and in some cases maybe even fighting words, to ask “why can’t I eat them” in the manner that someone suggested earlier. Instead, ask some of your Japanese friends or colleagues what happened. They will probably be very very indirect still, but your best bet is to try to have at least one relationship where someone in your in-group can be trusted to be frank withe the gaijin. Hint: if they use the -masu form with you, they probably are not it. If you use the -masu form with you, but they use the more direct form, they might be it. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/56 "2010-01-03T06:46:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Apologies for hijacking, but what would laowai mean? “whitey”? “foreigner”? Laowai 老外 is a “nicer” way to say “foreigner” than the full word waiguoren 外国人 since it has the “lao” honorific in the front. However, “laowai” can still be used as an epithet against foreigners depending on who says it and in what context. Many foreigners in China don’t like to be called “laowai.” I didn’t when I first came here, now I realize that there are plenty of other words that are much, much worse and that “laowai” is mostly just used without prejudice. I decide my response to it based on the context. Although “laowai” technically refers to any non-Chinese, it has come to mean “non-Asian foreigner” in the minds of most. Case in point: during the Chinese New Year celebration one year, the singer of Hua’er Yuedui (a Chinese rock band that was popular a few years back) said, (in Chinese)“I know there are many laowai watching tonight and I want to say to them: (in English)Happy New Year! (Chinese again)Also, I know there are many Koreans watching tonight, so I want to say: (in Korean) Happy New Year!” Obviously he didn’t consider Koreans to be “laowai,” even though they are. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/57 "2010-01-03T06:51:23Z")
_Really, can you imagine for a moment a bunch of American college students in their twenties walking an Indian professor sitting in his office, yelling “OMG Dot Head!”, pointing, falling into giggles, and running away?_ “dot head” is not the same as “laowai” at all. 大鼻子 “big nose” is the same as “dot head.” There’s a difference. Have you been called “big nose” recently? What’s more, China and America are two different animals. One is a country that has had major contact with non-natives for the past 20 years or so, the other is a country that has a long history of civil rights and discussion about racial issues. Comparing the two makes you look naive and allows your lack of time in this country to shine through rather well. Seriously, why do so many foreigners come to China and seem to feel like they’re entitled to be outraged at the benign terms Chinese use for us? Get over it. You are a “laowai.” We all are. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/58 "2010-01-03T06:52:19Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I think the OP’s amused irritation in this instance must be the tip of the iceburg for a whole bunch of seething culture-shock-fuelled anger. You’ve dedicated months or years to learning this language and now that you’re actually there, you realize that for the (majority?) of Japanese people it doesn’t make a lick of difference: you are, now and forever, the gaijin in their eyes. They’ll be oh, so polite to you in most instances; but it takes a case like the one in the OP’s scenario to show you that politeness is all it is; and all you’re ever gonna get. If that is the extent of your understanding of Japanese culture, no wonder. Japanese culture is not organized the same way as American or Western culture, the language is high context compared to low context English, different concept of ingroup and outgroup, obligation duties, and so forth. Don’t they teach this in language class anymore? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/59 "2010-01-03T07:28:29Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Have you been called “big nose” recently? Actually, yeah, in Chongqing the other week. I get it now and then. It took me a while to figure out that people were not just appreciating how “gao” my very western looking nose is. It’s a long way from Shanghai out here. Once again, I’m not looking for people to understand, respect or even appreciate my culture. But I do expect basic human-to-human respect, which I will persist in believing is universally achievable. In any case, I don’t blame the individuals. I believe there are specific forces that are perpetuating xenophobia at this time, with specific purposes. And I think it’s bad. In Chengdu, there is a coffee shop that says quite plainly on the door “No Japanese.” If your country wants to claim to be a modern place, you gotta work to get rid of this stuff, not work to make it stronger. ---
**Author:** ![EnginNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ea924/32.png) [@EnginNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnginNerd)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170/60 "2010-01-03T07:53:45Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Japanese tend to take more responsibility for what they sell. Thank you for the in-depth response. I think this part here is the most likely answer to my whole mystery. I have noticed a similar attitude in other situations, so this wouldn’t be out of line. Since the place is practically right across the street from my apartment, maybe I should stop in next week sometime and say that I tried some and they were the best thing I’ve ever eaten, please give me more! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-culture-experts-help-me-decode-this-situation/523170.md?page=4)