# Japanese emperor to abdicate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [June 10, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612 "2017-06-10T16:44:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/1 "2017-06-10T16:44:47Z")
Japan’s Diet just [enacted a law](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/06/09/national/diet-enacts-one-time-law-allow-emperor-akihito-abdicate/#.WTwX8uuGNdg) which allows Emperor Akihito (83) to abdicate, the first time in 200 years this will occur in Japan. He has had various health issues.
Because of the reforms to the [line of succession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Japanese_throne), there are only four in line, including the Crown Prince Naruhito (b. 1960), his brother Prince Akishino (b. 1965), Prince Hisahito son of Akinino (b. 2006) and Prince Hitachi (b. 1935) younger brother to Emperor Akihito.
Current Japanese law forbids women from the succession, as well as forcing them to lose their imperial status if they marry a commoner. Consequently, there are only a dozen or so members of the imperial family left, including seven unmarried princesses mostly in their 20s and 30s.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/2 "2017-06-10T18:25:32Z")
Ten-year-old Hisahito is the eye of the needle as far as maintaining a male line of succession. His mother is 50 and his aunt is 53 so it’s unlikely there will be any other males born in his generation.
How does Japanese law determine somebody is a commoner? I thought all the nobility outside of the imperial family itself was abolished after WWII. Doesn’t that mean everyone a princess could marry is a commoner? Or is that the point?
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### Author:  [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/3 "2017-06-10T22:02:29Z")
The Japanese imperial household is one of the most retrograde institutions in the world. They broke the spirit of Empress Michiko, and seem to be doing their best to do the same for (Crown) Princess Masako. They make the British royal household look like an episode of Roseanne.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/4 "2017-06-11T01:40:53Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> …
> Because of the reforms to the [line of succession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Japanese_throne), there are only four in line, including the Crown Prince Naruhito (b. 1960), his brother Prince Akishino (b. 1965), Prince Hisahito son of **Akinino** (b. 2006) and Prince Hitachi (b. 1935) younger brother to Emperor Akihito.
> …
Bolded word should be “Akishino” I think. A victim of spell check perchance?
Keeping the characters and relations straight is hard enough without rogue typos.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Ten-year-old Hisahito is the eye of the needle as far as maintaining a male line of succession. His mother is 50 and his aunt is 53 so it’s unlikely there will be any other males born in his generation.
>
> How does Japanese law determine somebody is a commoner? Doesn’t that mean everyone a princess could marry is a commoner? Or is that the point?
Seems to be the point; to scrape off the wimminfolk.
As to the eye of the needle, it’s a hard problem to design a dynastic system that doesn’t either have pedigree collapse to 1 or zero heirs, or alternatively goes like the House of Saud and ends up with tens of thousands of mid-grade royals and a formal succession list numbering in the hundreds.
Eventually we’ll put this silliness behind us worldwide. But not soon enough.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/5 "2017-06-11T04:47:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Ten-year-old Hisahito is the eye of the needle as far as maintaining a male line of succession. His mother is 50 and his aunt is 53 so it’s unlikely there will be any other males born in his generation.
Originally, his parents had the two older sisters and then quit. His father is the younger brother to the crown prince, and broke tradition by getting married first.
Akishino had had his first daughter (b. 1991) before Crown Prince Naruhito finally got married in 1993. I was living in Japan during the time and it was a huge deal. They soon has their second daughter (b. 1994) but as neither was likely to stick around, the girls were never in the spotlight or really even featured much by any of the media.
It wasn’t until after it became obvious that Prince Naruhito and Masako could not have a second child and the government was in crisis mode in 2004 and 2005 that Akishino had Hisahito in 2006. For the most part, Japanese are respectful toward the imperial family, but outside of a few people generally reserved.
> [@](#):
>
> How does Japanese law determine somebody is a commoner? I thought all the nobility outside of the imperial family itself was abolished after WWII. Doesn’t that mean everyone a princess could marry is a commoner? Or is that the point?
Yes, after WWII, under direction of the occupying GHQ, they eliminated all of the 10 outside branches, or [ooke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cke) leaving only Emperor Hirohito and his three brothers. None of these brothers were able to have sons. Only Hirohito did his duty to have an heir and a spare.
In the later 19th century, the Japanese themselves formalized the tradition against females becoming ruling empresses and the Americans were concerned about an outsider gaining too much influence over the ruler. The two rules about removing the ooke branches and forcing daughters to leave the imperial family were part of the efforts by the Americans to ensure that the imperial system would remain symbolic without real power.
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#):
>
> The Japanese imperial household is one of the most retrograde institutions in the world. They broke the spirit of Empress Michiko, and seem to be doing their best to do the same for (Crown) Princess Masako.
What they did was criminal. Masako had originally (wisely) declined marriage proposals because she was quite independent and was afraid of what would happen if she were locked in the gilded cage. Her subsequent nervous breakdown is proof that she was right.
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Eventually we’ll put this silliness behind us worldwide. But not soon enough.
Yep.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/6 "2017-06-11T07:29:31Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> Yes, after WWII, under direction of the occupying GHQ, they eliminated all of the 10 outside branches, or [ooke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cke) leaving only Emperor Hirohito and his three brothers. None of these brothers were able to have sons. Only Hirohito did his duty to have an heir and a spare.
A nitpick, but Hirohito’s youngest brother, Takahito, had three sons (and two daughters). Takahito and all three of his sons are now deceased and none of the sons had a son. (Takahito, incidentally, lived to the age of 100 and outlived all three of his sons.) So that branch of the family tree has become a dead end as far as a direct line of male heirs is concerned.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/7 "2017-06-11T11:34:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> A nitpick, but Hirohito’s youngest brother, Takahito, had three sons (and two daughters). Takahito and all three of his sons are now deceased and none of the sons had a son. (Takahito, incidentally, lived to the age of 100 and outlived all three of his sons.) So that branch of the family tree has become a dead end as far as a direct line of male heirs is concerned.
Oh, right of course. He had the three sons, but those sons didn’t have sons.
I was always surprised that of the various families, so many just had a couple of daughters and stopped. How difficult is to to keep having kids when that’s your entire reason for existence?
I never really had many conversations about the imperial family despite initially being interested in the topic and having spent several decades there. People just didn’t talk about it.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/8 "2017-06-11T12:50:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Ten-year-old Hisahito is the eye of the needle as far as maintaining a male line of succession. His mother is 50 and his aunt is 53 so it’s unlikely there will be any other males born in his generation.
>
> How does Japanese law determine somebody is a commoner? I thought all the nobility outside of the imperial family itself was abolished after WWII. Doesn’t that mean everyone a princess could marry is a commoner? Or is that the point?
Keeping in mind I don’t follow any countries royalty sagas …
Is the father of Hisahito dead? Is the current Emperor gelded? They can always get a new young breeding age wife, or they could go in and do the IVF shuffle [hormone, egg removal and fertilization and implant into a surrogate] Barring total death, lack of balls or other inability to generate sperm, men don’t have to worry about ‘aging’ out of the reproductive race.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/9 "2017-06-11T14:16:46Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> Is the father of Hisahito dead? Is the current Emperor gelded? They can always get a new young breeding age wife, or they could go in and do the IVF shuffle [hormone, egg removal and fertilization and implant into a surrogate] Barring total death, lack of balls or other inability to generate sperm, men don’t have to worry about ‘aging’ out of the reproductive race.
I said further male heirs were unlikely not impossible. I feel the scenarios you describe are encompassed by unlikelihood.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/10 "2017-06-11T17:25:34Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> including seven unmarried princesses mostly in their 20s and 30s.
Quick! Someone alert Prince Harry!
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/11 "2017-06-11T23:35:00Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> Is the father of Hisahito dead? Is the current Emperor gelded? They can always get a new young breeding age wife,
Until recently, a fair number of emperors were born to concubines.
Apparently one of the Plan Bs is to adopt a son from one of the offshoot families. Adopting adult sons has also been done in the past.
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/12 "2017-06-12T00:27:09Z")
Where would a wife for the new young prince end up coming from, if the only “royals” are close family? And what if a potential emperor rebelled and said “Fakku kono kuso” and wouldn’t put up with the restrictions put on him?
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/13 "2017-06-12T01:50:46Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> Until recently, a fair number of emperors were born to concubines…
IIRC Hirohito (aka the Showa Emperor) was the first monogamous Japanese emperor; traditionally Emperors had multiple wives of differing ranks, and the Japanese worn now translated as “Empress” was the highest rank. I think if it came to we we’d see female succession (maybe along semi-Salic law) or imperial adoption being allowed before imperial polygyny.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/14 "2017-06-12T01:56:16Z")
> [@Baker](#):
>
> Where would a wife for the new young prince end up coming from, if the only “royals” are close family?
The “no commoners” rule only applies to female members of the imperial family. Male members of the family can marry commoners without losing their imperial status.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/15 "2017-06-12T01:59:30Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> Apparently one of the Plan Bs is to adopt a son from one of the offshoot families. Adopting adult sons has also been done in the past.
From what I’ve read, one of the changes that was enacted in 1947 was that the Imperial family can no longer adopt new members into itself.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/16 "2017-06-12T02:44:52Z")
Sorta sounds like the US forces rigged the game to ensure the Imperial family would die out within a couple, or at most a few, generations.
Recognizing that however the future unfolded there’d probably be an opportunity for the Japanese to amend the rules if it really remained, or became, important to them.
Which raises a question:
What would happen if, over the next few years the current 4 male heirs all died in uncontroversial ways. Would there be a hue and cry to rejigger the rules to keep an imperial line going and keep an Emperor / Empress? Or would there be a big Ho Hum from the public and except for a few nostalgic conservative hotheads, the desire for dynasty would quietly shuffle off into the history books?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/17 "2017-06-12T03:35:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Sorta sounds like the US forces rigged the game to ensure the Imperial family would die out within a couple, or at most a few, generations.
I don’t think we can blame America for this one. If we had wanted to abolish the imperial system, we were in a position to do so in 1947. Why would we have bothered to enact a secret plan to abolish it slowly in over the course of the next hundred years? Especially a secret plan that required us to predict what children would be born in future generations.
We wanted to reduce the power of the Emperor to a symbol and we did that. All the rest is on the Japanese. They apparently decided they wanted to keep the Imperial family male-dominated and to sharply limit it in size.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/18 "2017-06-12T03:45:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> What would happen if, over the next few years the current 4 male heirs all died in uncontroversial ways. Would there be a hue and cry to rejigger the rules to keep an imperial line going and keep an Emperor / Empress? Or would there be a big Ho Hum from the public and except for a few nostalgic conservative hotheads, the desire for dynasty would quietly shuffle off into the history books?
There are options:
1. Ignore the problem. Just hope that little Hisahito grows up and has sons and the problem never gets critical.
2. Abolish the monarchy. That resolves all the issues involving the line of succession.
3. Allow women in the imperial family to have equal status with the men. Apply the same rules of marriage and inheritance to them. This would immediately put several more people in the line of succession.
4. Allow women in the imperial family to have limited rights. Don’t allow them to become Empress, for example, but allow their sons to become Emperor. This would make a few new candidates eligible to become Emperor.
5. Bring some of the collateral lines back into the imperial family. The imperial family is currently limited to the descendants of Emperor Taisho (Hirohito’s father). If you moved it back one more generation to the descendants of Emperor Meiji (Taisho’s father) you’d bring several people back into the imperial family and the line of succession.
No predictions from me on which one the Japanese might choose.
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### Author:  [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/19 "2017-06-12T05:31:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Eventually we’ll put this silliness behind us worldwide. But not soon enough.
And end up with Donald Trump. It’s a massive improvement…
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/20 "2017-06-12T06:10:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> Quick! Someone alert Prince Harry!
Which raises a question - would he be considered "royalty’ in Japanese terms, or do foreigners not count?
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