# Japanese emperor to abdicate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [June 10, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612 "2017-06-10T16:44:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/21 "2017-06-12T11:21:06Z")
@ **Little Nemo**. Good thoughts. I was thinking the US decided to immediately hobble the monarchy politically, and leave it to the accidents of fate for when and how the monarchy finally collapses to dust. But meanwhile they adjusted the rules to have that happen sooner rather than later. But probably far enough in the future that the immediate post-war passions will have long since cooled so the end of the monarchy would not be seen as a US action.
As to loss of heir, my question was essentially what happens if they take option 1: do nothing, and then Hisahito dies without issue after the others are gone. IOW Oops, we forgot to have a plan. You’ve outlined good choices for ways to keep the dynasty going.
I wonder if anyone else could offer a thought on the politics. Would they be motivated to bother or not?
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/22 "2017-06-13T01:53:57Z")
> [@Baker](#):
>
> And what if a potential emperor rebelled and said “Fakku kono kuso” and wouldn’t put up with the restrictions put on him?
As noted, males can marry commoners. However, as far as the question of a prince telling the system to fuck off, it would take quite an extraordinary circumstance, I’m sure.
The imperial family is raised from childhood to conform to the system. It’s difficult to really reject that. Note that the Japanese monarcy is poor. They have no independent wealth and must rely on their allowances.
The closest I’ve seen to this was in 2004 when the Crown Prince [spoke out](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5074926/ns/world_news/t/its-no-fairy-tale-japans-crown-princess/#.WT5ppuuGNdg) concerning the treatment his wife was being subjected to.
> [@](#):
>
> “Masako has worked hard to adapt to the environment of the imperial household for the past 10 years. But from what I can see, I think that she has completely exhausted herself,” Naruhito said.
> And he blasted unnamed culprits in the secretive household. "It is also true that actions were taken which **dismissed Masako’s previous career as well as her personality** , which is based on that career.”
> Although the crown prince refused to offer any further explanation or disclose the target of his anger, his remarks nonetheless sparked a national debate, including parliamentary hearings and a daily witch hunt on local talk shows to figure out who was responsible for the princess’s affliction.
My bolding.
The English translation isn’t particularly strong, and is much less shocking then the Japanese.
In turn, the younger brother used his limited press time to [criticize](http://fp.brecorder.com/2004/12/2004120182488/) the crown prince.
> [@](#):
>
> “I myself was surprised to no small extent, and I heard the emperor was also very surprised” by the crown prince’s remarks, Prince Akishino said in a news conference broadcast Tuesday.
>
> “I think he should have only spoken after talking to the emperor about what he planned to say,” he said. “I think it is regrettable.”
> [@alphaboi867](#):
>
> IIRC Hirohito (aka the Showa Emperor) was the first monogamous Japanese emperor; traditionally Emperors had multiple wives of differing ranks, and the Japanese worn now translated as “Empress” was the highest rank. I think if it came to we we’d see female succession (maybe along semi-Salic law) or imperial adoption being allowed before imperial polygyny.
They had concubines, although there may have been a time when polygamy was allowed.
I agree that female succession or adoption would be more much more likely to be adapted first.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> From what I’ve read, one of the changes that was enacted in 1947 was that the Imperial family can no longer adopt new members into itself.
It could be. I know that it would require a change in that law for adaption to be permitted. However, if there comes a time when there are no longer any (male) heirs, something will likely be changed.
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Sorta sounds like the US forces rigged the game to ensure the Imperial family would die out within a couple, or at most a few, generations.
At the time, the US was much more concerned that the Japanese didn’t become ultra nationalists again. They had Hirohito’s compliance, and wanted to ensure that there wouldn’t be any future wide cards.
> [@](#):
>
> What would happen if, over the next few years the current 4 male heirs all died in uncontroversial ways. Would there be a hue and cry to rejigger the rules to keep an imperial line going and keep an Emperor / Empress? Or would there be a big Ho Hum from the public and except for a few nostalgic conservative hotheads, the desire for dynasty would quietly shuffle off into the history books?
My sense is that they would like to continue it, although this could obviously change at some point in the future.
Like most other countries, we can safely assume that the younger people would care less than the older folks. However, the government is made up of nothing but older people, and they would care enough to do something.
Back before Hisahito was born in 2006, a clear majority (70% plus) of Japanese supported allowing females to ascend to the throne. There was a formal study group set up which recommended it, and had Hisahito not been born, that would likely have occurred.
The die-hard conservatives will never accept it, and they do have an outsized influence, especially on the ruling party, the conservative LDP. I think there would be a zero percent chance of letting the throne die off in the next couple of years, as you posted here. After another 60 years when Emperor Hisahito is 70? Who knows?
Not being around Japanese news anymore, I don’t have a good sense of where it’s going.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> I don’t think we can blame America for this one.
I don’t actually remember that with 100% confidence. I know that the US was concerned about outside influence on the throne and there were questions concerning some of Hirohito’s relatives. There were a number of members of the aristocracy which were politicians and military leaders.
I have read accounts which place the responsibility directly on GHQ. I’ve googled but haven’t seen anything which is satisfactory.
(I had to give up most of my collection of history books as I moved over the years from one small Japanese apartment to another. By the time I had a house (although limited in size by a family) I had already given up too many of my books.)
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> And end up with Donald Trump. It’s a massive improvement…
Good point. We can no longer laugh at the world.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Which raises a question - would he be considered "royalty’ in Japanese terms, or do foreigners not count?
According to Japanese law, he would be a commoner. Japanese law is based on the Japanese imperial family as royalty and doesn’t recognize royalty from other countries.
The translated term “imperial” is used because of the the timing of the Meiji restoration in the 19th century. The Japanese wanted to place their monarchy on the same level as Germany and France, among others. There is no distinction in Japanese between a king and an emperor.
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/23 "2017-06-13T14:07:49Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> There is no distinction in Japanese between a king and an emperor.
How did the Japanese emperor compare to the Chinese emperor? My understanding is they used different words. Did the Japanese emperor recognize the Chinese emperor as higher rank (or equal, or lesser)?
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### Author:  [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)
#### Post date: [June 13, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/24 "2017-06-13T23:56:19Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> …According to Japanese law, he would be a commoner. Japanese law is based on the Japanese imperial family as royalty and doesn’t recognize royalty from other countries…
According to the strictest interpretations of British law Prince Harry is technically a commoner in the UK too since he’s neither the Sovereign, a peer, or the wife/widow the Sovereign or of a peer.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/25 "2017-06-14T04:04:01Z")
> [@Pleonast](#):
>
> How did the Japanese emperor compare to the Chinese emperor? My understanding is they used different words. Did the Japanese emperor recognize the Chinese emperor as higher rank (or equal, or lesser)?
Japanese use the genderless term tennoo heaven’s emperor for their emperor or empress. They use the genderless term koutei emperor for everyone else. The ranks are equal.
Historically the Japanese borrowed many things such as ranks from the Chinese.
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### Author:  [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/26 "2017-06-15T16:09:08Z")
> [@Pleonast](#):
>
> How did the Japanese emperor compare to the Chinese emperor? My understanding is they used different words. Did the Japanese emperor recognize the Chinese emperor as higher rank (or equal, or lesser)?
Chinese rulers claimed jurisdiction over the entire planet. According to the imperial ideology, there was one _huang-ti_ (usually translated into English as “emperor”) on the planet, and he lived in Beijing. All other rulers were referred to by the lesser title _wang_ (usually translated into English as “king”).
Japanese rulers held that there was one _tenno_ on the planet, and he lived in Tokyo. Other rulers were referred to by something else. In the presence of Chinese emissaries, they did not claim that a _tenno_ was equal to a _huang-ti_. They just claimed that _tenno_ was a uniquely Japanese title, that should not be used by a non-Japanese.
If the Chinese translated _tenno_ as _wang_, the Japanese didn’t particularly care. As long as the Japanese ruler didn’t call himself _huang-ti_, and the Chinese ruler didn’t call himself _tenno_, everybody was happy.
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### Author:  [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/27 "2017-06-29T02:32:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> Quick! Someone alert Prince Harry!
One’s off the table now. Princess Mako just announced her engagement (or announced the announcement of her engagement) last week.
> **[Princess Mako's engagement to be officially announced on July 8](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/06/20/national/princess-makos-engagement-officially-announced-july-8/)**
>
> The Imperial Household Agency said Monday it will officially announce the engagement of Princess Mako, the first grandchild of Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko, to a university classmate on July 8.
Reading through the Imperial Household law, a few things jumped out at me:
[https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Imperial\_House\_Law](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Imperial_House_Law)
First, female members of the Imperial family can remain in the family if they marry other members. The wording of the law seems to imply that this is the expected thing for them to do (Article 12).
Second, members of the family can opt to leave the family of their own free will from age 15, making it stranger that abdication required special one-off legislation from the Diet (Article 11).
Third, members of the Imperial Family are specifically forbidden by law to adopt (Article 9). Not really relevant to the current matter, I just thought it was interesting that any adoption was expressly forbidden, rather than just declaring adopted members ineligible for succession.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2017, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-emperor-to-abdicate/788612/28 "2017-06-29T05:19:37Z")
They also drastically reduced the number of members of the imperial family at the same time they make the requirements concerning females having to leave so they couldn’t have expected them to marry other members.
I haven’t read anything about the specifics of why the chose to forbid abdication.
I’m sure that GHQ wanted to ensure that there was no chance of outsiders gaining control of the throne, so hence the prohibition against adopting.
The law was adapted shortly after the bloodiest war ever and there were many Allies who were extremely opposed to the idea of the emperor continuing on the throne.
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