# Japanese Gold Bars 999.9 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908 "2019-11-02T11:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/1 "2019-11-02T11:29:46Z")
I’ve always seen gold bars being classified as 99 point something (99.9). Some Japanese gold bars are classified as 999.9 What is the point of this? If you don’t understand what I’m talking about just google “japan 999.9 gold” and do an image search. You’ll find some examples. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/2 "2019-11-02T12:20:47Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I’ve always seen gold bars being classified as 99 point something (99.9). Some Japanese gold bars are classified as 999.9 > What is the point of this? > > If you don’t understand what I’m talking about just google “japan 999.9 gold” and do an image search. You’ll find some examples. 999.9 parts gold out of 1000. What else could it mean? The point is higher purity. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/3 "2019-11-02T12:36:38Z")
Googling “gold bar purity” produces lots of hits. Here’s one: [What is Fine Gold?](https://www.jmbullion.com/investing-guide/types-physical-metals/fine-gold/) > [@](#): > > Fine gold is gold that is almost pure. Its purity is typically graded using a scale of millesimal fineness. This denotes the number of parts per thousand of pure metal in the alloy, according to its mass. This fineness is generally rounded to a three-figure number, with decimal places to follow where appropriate, especially where it’s used as a hallmark. For example, a fine gold piece which contains 99.9 percent gold would be labelled 999 or .999. > … > Purities of Fine Gold > There is some leeway regarding what constitutes fine gold. As 100% pure gold is virtually impossible to achieve, the purest type of gold currently commercially available is 999.99. This is sometimes referred to as five nines fine. The Royal Canadian Mint regularly produces commemorative coins from this fine gold. > Just below this is 999.9, or “four nines” fine. American Buffalo and Canadian Gold Maple Leaf coins are made from this fine gold. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/4 "2019-11-02T12:36:49Z")
I always wondered how you can tell if a gold object is actually pure-ish gold, without melting it down. Sure, you could check density, but couldn’t someone mix lead and a lighter metal to create a core with the same combined density as gold? Then electroplate or melt on a thin outer gold layer, depending on the melting point of the eutectic metal core? Does NMR work on bricks of gold? I only ever got to use it in school on tiny test tubes. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/5 "2019-11-02T12:53:36Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I always wondered how you can tell if a gold object is actually pure-ish gold, without melting it down. Sure, you could check density, but couldn’t someone mix lead and a lighter metal to create a core with the same combined density as gold? Then electroplate or melt on a thin outer gold layer, depending on the melting point of the eutectic metal core? Gold purity on that level is generally inspected through X-ray fluorescence spectrometry, because we live in the 21st century. If you just need to check that it is “pure-ish” gold, it can be tested for electrical conductivity. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/6 "2019-11-02T13:01:41Z")
Or you could just put it in a full tub of water, measure how much water it displaces, and calculate the density from there. _Eureka!_ ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/7 "2019-11-02T13:59:14Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I always wondered how you can tell if a gold object is actually pure-ish gold, without melting it down. Sure, you could check density, but couldn’t someone mix lead and a lighter metal to create a core with the same combined density as gold? Then electroplate or melt on a thin outer gold layer, depending on the melting point of the eutectic metal core? > > Does NMR work on bricks of gold? I only ever got to use it in school on tiny test tubes. Lead is a ‘lighter metal’ when it comes to gold. Densities: Lead, 11.34 g/cc; Gold, 19.3 g/cc. You’d need to use something like osmium or uranium to hit your target density. No idea on NMR. I too, just handed my O.Chem samples to the tech. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/8 "2019-11-02T14:03:34Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I always wondered how you can tell if a gold object is actually pure-ish gold, without melting it down. Sure, you could check density, but couldn’t someone mix lead and a lighter metal to create a core with the same combined density as gold? No, because gold is significantly denser than lead. There are some elements denser than gold, but most of them are more expensive than gold. Tungsten is pretty cheap, but has a melting point of over 6000 F. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/9 "2019-11-02T14:17:44Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Lead is a ‘lighter metal’ when it comes to gold. Densities: Lead, 11.34 g/cc; Gold, 19.3 g/cc. You’d need to use something like osmium or uranium to hit your target density. > > No idea on NMR. I too, just handed my O.Chem samples to the tech. Tungsten would be better (Uranium is slightly less dense). Either way, and to your point, the metals that are currently known to have a greater density than gold were discovered in the Industrial Age or more recently. That’s why the tale of Archimedes’ break through with the development of the concept of density was such a “Eureaka!” moment, worthy of running naked through the streets. At the time, gold was the densest known substance, so it was impossible to fake “solid gold” with something hollowed out or an alloyed substance. Knowing the density of gold and then coming up with anything less than for a supposed/claimed solid object would be proof of a fake. Coming up with anything “more than” was, to the ancient mind, impossible given the limits of their knowledge. Or at the very least it would have been groundbreaking new science and pointed to a new element which, purely due to novelty and rarity, might have been taken as even MORE valuable than gold. For reference, here’s a chart of elements and their densities. Of note, everything beyond gold was unknown in antiquity: > **[Density of Elements Chart – Angstrom Sciences Elements Density Table](https://www.angstromsciences.com/density-elements-chart)** > > Density of Elements Chart by Angstrom Science provides the density, name and symbol for your reference in sputtering or vapor deposition projects. Lead just ain’t gonna do it. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/10 "2019-11-02T14:25:25Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Lead just ain’t gonna do it. Thanks. I just assumed without checking because, well, lead is pretty known for being really heavy and dense. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/11 "2019-11-02T14:56:41Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I always wondered how you can tell if a gold object is actually pure-ish gold, without melting it down. Sure, you could check density, but couldn’t someone mix lead and a lighter metal to create a core with the same combined density as gold? Then electroplate or melt on a thin outer gold layer, depending on the melting point of the eutectic metal core? It would take a lot of work and expense to get the density just right. > [@SamuelA](#): > > Thanks. I just assumed without checking because, well, lead is pretty known for being really heavy and dense. Most people don’t have any up-close-and-personal experience with gold sufficient to know that. I once read of a gold mine in South Africa that had a gold bar on display in their main office. They had a standing offer to the effect that they would give it to anybody who could pick it up with one hand. It was never claimed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/12 "2019-11-02T15:13:04Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Or you could just put it in a full tub of water, measure how much water it displaces, and calculate the density from there. _Eureka!_ Well that is a pivotal point in the field of science, though perhaps more legend than fact, but there are higher and lower density materials which can be combined to have the same density as gold and then merely coated with gold. Now in Archimedes time, it was a breakthrough to see the relationship between density and volume so no one was trying to fake gold that way, they were simply mixing it with other metals. This whole subject could take me off on a tangent that I’d rather not get into now. Just to mention, not all that much gold is kept in pure form. Jewelry and the like are often 14K gold, an alloy with other metals. Even the gold in Ft. Knox is not all high purity gold, much of it is melted down coins containing other metals. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/13 "2019-11-02T15:15:16Z")
It always annoys me when you see actors handling gold bars in films. A classic example: [Kelly's Heroes (1970) Official Trailer - Clint Eastwood, Donald Sutherland War Movie HD - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iby1Ni0VJxg) ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/14 "2019-11-02T15:29:25Z")
Collectors want high-purity gold because of the value. Industry wants high-purity gold for industrial purposes. As mentioned, most commercial gold is lower purity because pure gold is too soft and heavy to really want for applications like jewelry. I’ve heard stories of thieves who stole industrial gold, went to sell it, and were caught because the purity was so high it was obvious it wasn’t a personal collection. I don’t see why you’d use anything other than XRF to check purity of gold or gold solutions. Could you do NMR on gold, either in solution as a salt or solid-state? Sure, gold has a spin number of 3/2 but it’s nearly 10,000 times less sensitive than proton NMR. You’d be there forever doing a bad analysis. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/15 "2019-11-02T15:32:34Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > It always annoys me when you see actors handling gold bars in films. > > A classic example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iby1Ni0VJxg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iby1Ni0VJxg) Because of the weight? That ingot might weight 15-16 pounds, not ridiculously heavy, but almost everyone that picks up a piece of gold that size would be surprised at the weight. I expect them to do that sort of hefting up and down thing people do when something is heavier than expected. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/16 "2019-11-02T16:04:14Z")
Regarding the OP’s claim that you’ve seen gold classified on a 100-point scale, like 99.9 – where have you seen that? As far as I can recall, I’ve only ever seen gold classified on a 1000-point scale, like “999 fine”. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fineness) calls the 1000-point system “millesimal fineness” and says “Various ways of expressing fineness have been used and two remain in common use: millesimal fineness expressed in units of parts per 1,000 and karats used only for gold.” It doesn’t say anything about a 100-point system being in use. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/17 "2019-11-02T16:09:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Or you could just put it in a full tub of water, measure how much water it displaces, and calculate the density from there. _Eureka!_ As was [recently mentioned here at SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21850315&postcount=57), that story is mythical. Archimedes did determine the density of the crown, but he used a method far more clever — and more precise — than measuring water displacement: He weighed the crown with a balance scale while it was under water. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/18 "2019-11-02T17:27:57Z")
Video illustrating the density of gold: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz27orlBBDU) A museum in Japan offers a challenge to pull a 12.5 kilogram bar of gold through an elbow-sized hole in a box. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/19 "2019-11-02T17:44:26Z")
[do not try to take your Nobel medal through airport security in Fargo](https://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2018/10/nobel-2-taking-medal-through-fargo.html) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908/20 "2019-11-03T03:42:21Z")
And there are a lot of tungsten gold bars out there. There is a huge Chinese industry making fake gold bars of various qualities, and they certainly have the technology to make tungsten gold bars (which, although too expensive for cheap fakes, are much cheaper than real gold bars). And the Chinese have famously accused the USA of being the source of tungsten gold bars. Real gold bars come with serial numbers now. But serial numbers are easy to fake, so there is now also an industry creating fake gold bars made out of real gold — to increase the value and disguise the source of black-market gold. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-gold-bars-999-9/842908.md?page=2)