# Japanese language: why does "n" sometimes get anglicized into "m"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 28, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119 "2020-10-28T14:15:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/1 "2020-10-28T14:15:35Z")
There are a number of Japanese words which, when rendered in Latin script (“**[romaji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese)**”), have an “n” sound that gets translated/rendered as an “m”. A few examples: [**Tempura**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempura); the first kanji character, 天, is “ten” _(although now that I read the etymology of this word, maybe not the best example)_ Shimbashi, as in **[Shimbashi Station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimbashi_Station#/media/File:Shimbashi-Station-East-exit.JPG)** in Tokyo; the first kanji character, 新, is “shin” **[Shimbun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_newspapers)**, or newspaper; as above, the first kanji character (新) is “shin” I’m guessing there are more like this. English-speakers have no trouble pronouncing “n”, so why that sound getting lost in translation? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/2 "2020-10-28T14:31:43Z")
That phoneme (written as “n” in a scheme kike Romaji) sometimes sounds more like “m”, e.g. in a word like shimbun. Wikipedia lists at least 6 or 7 different pronunciations. In any case, it is the difference between a phonetic transcription and the systematic use of “n” in all cases. To draw a parallel, you should not be surprised that Beijing starts with “b” ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/3 "2020-10-28T15:06:46Z")
Another example is kanpai (cheers). When you romanise the word you can write it with n or m (e.g. shinbun or shimbun). It’s simply because “n” sounds like “m” before a p or b. It’s not particularly a feature of Japanese. In English we have words like “impair”, “compere”, “combine” where a prefix with “n” gets elided into “m”. Try saying “conbine” and you’ll see it’s hard to distinguish from “combine”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/4 "2020-10-28T15:10:01Z")
[wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_(kana)) explains it well. > [@](#): > > The kana is followed by an [apostrophe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe) in some systems of [transliteration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration) whenever it precedes a [vowel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel) or a y- kana, so as to prevent confusion with other kana. However, like every other kana, it represents an entire [mora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_(linguistics)), so its pronunciation is, in practice, as close to “nn” as “n”. The pronunciation can also change depending on what sounds surround it. These are a few of the ways it can change: > > - [n] (before _n_ , _t_ , _d_ , _r_ , _ts_ , _z_ , _ch_ and _j_ ) > - [m] (before _m_ , _p_ and _b_ ) > - [ŋ] (before _k_ and _g_ ) > - [ɴ] (at the end of utterances) > - [ũ͍] (before vowels, palatal approximants ( _y_ ), consonants _h_ , _f_ , _s_ , _sh_ and _w_ ) > - [ĩ] (after the vowel _i_ if another vowel, palatal approximant or consonant _f_ , _s_ , _sh_ , _h_ or _w_ follows.) So basically when ん (n) is before an “m”, a “p” or a “b” then it changed to an “m” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/5 "2020-10-29T04:21:07Z")
Not just in Japanese, or its transliteration. In English, _comptroller_ is pronounced controller. The German city Nürnberg gets transliterated Nuremberg. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/6 "2020-10-29T04:31:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > _comptroller_ is pronounced controller 🤯🤯🤯 ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/7 "2020-10-29T05:08:41Z")
Interesting. I work in accounting and I’ve heard it both ways. I thought a comptroller was equivalent to a CFO before that term was in common usage. Seems I’m someone right as comptroller is used in government, which is why I heard it when I was young as my Dad worked in Federal Civil Service and I never heard him use the term controller. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptroller#:~:text=In%20American%20government%2C%20the%20comptroller,role%20in%20internal%20audit%20functions.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptroller#:~:text=In%20American%20government%2C%20the%20comptroller,role%20in%20internal%20audit%20functions.) ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2020, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/8 "2020-10-29T05:47:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > In English, _comptroller_ is pronounced controller. It is?! 😲 ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/9 "2020-10-30T04:16:19Z")
[Yes, pronounced controller.](https://www.marketplace.org/2018/05/14/you-say-comptroller-i-say-controller/) ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/10 "2020-10-30T09:44:10Z")
There are at least two schemes for phonetically rendering Japanese into English. It depends on what consonants comes together. So you have _Shinkansen_ (the train ) and _Shinjuku_ (an area in Tokyo), but _Shimbashi_ and the newspaper is the _Asahi Shimbun_. There are also at least two schemes for handling doubled vowels such as the long ‘o’ in Osaka. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/11 "2020-10-30T10:48:26Z")
Anyone here remember Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi? Or was it Gaddafi? Kadafi? Qaddafi? Gadhafi? I think the answer is this: English speakers can usually distinguish the sounds “m” and “n” pretty easily, but it’s not so easy for speakers of other languages where those sounds aren’t so common or so distinct, or they have only a single sound somewhere between the two that doesn’t appear in English at all. But our printed alphabet forces us to make choices how to anglicize a certain sound. And even without putting these things in writing, it can be a daunting task simply to teach someone how to pronounce a sound that they didn’t grow up hearing. Example: the first consonant in “Chanukah” is pretty easy for those who can pronounce “yucchhh”, but some people find that sound difficult to make and it comes out as “yukk”; those people usually give up on the guttaral “ch” sound, and refer to that holiday as “Hanukah”. So too with so many other anglicizations. For more information, consider the change from “Bombay” to “Mumbai”, or “Peking” to “Beijing”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/12 "2020-10-30T11:21:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > comptroller Furthermore, any word that started with the in- prefix gets it changed to m if it’s in front of a labial consonant (one that uses the lips). It’s not inpolite–it’s impolite. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/13 "2020-11-05T05:06:09Z")
May not be just English that does this transformation; I was thinking today of how Champs-Élysées is pronounced by the French. However, it’s still puzzling to me because I think of there being a _very_ different mouth position for sounding an _m_ and sounding an _n_. One’s labial; the other’s lingual. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/14 "2020-11-12T12:31:18Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > There are at least two schemes for phonetically rendering Japanese into English. It depends on what consonants comes together. So you have _Shinkansen_ (the train ) and _Shinjuku_ (an area in Tokyo), but _Shimbashi_ and the newspaper is the _Asahi Shimbun_ . This explanation isn’t the best as it doesn’t explain the reason for the change; that the difference is because the sound in Japanese of the syllable ending “n” (ん) actually changes into an “m” sound before “m”, “b” and “p” where it doesn’t before other consonants. Thus “Shimbashi” and “shimbun” but “Shinjuku”. This has been noted above by myself and others. There are Romanization systems that use “n” for all cases of the syllable ending “n”. In those systems, the above words would be written “Shinbashi” and “shinbun” but pronounced “Shimbashi” and “shimbun”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/15 "2020-11-12T12:32:09Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I think the answer is this: English speakers can usually distinguish the sounds “m” and “n” pretty easily, but it’s not so easy for speakers of other languages where those sounds aren’t so common or so distinct, or they have only a single sound somewhere between the two that doesn’t appear in English at all. No. This isn’t correct. ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-language-why-does-n-sometimes-get-anglicized-into-m/924119/16 "2020-11-21T09:53:10Z")
Just realized, Tempura donburi (donburi or don meaning bowl) is spelled Tendon, not Temdon.