# "Japanese" proverb: Floating enemies, river sitting **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602 "2010-07-22T14:44:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/41 "2013-11-07T03:26:45Z")
Given the recurring problems Spain has been having with variable gravity, it’s possible your enemy’s corpse will float by in, say, Barcelona without any help at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/42 "2013-11-07T08:25:47Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > The rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain but I think you may be making some unwarranted assumption. “Sit at your doorstep and you will see the corpse of your enemy go by” meaning his funeral procession. Nothing is meant or implied about floats or floods. Yes - I would take that to mean something along the lines of “Let time take revenge on your enemies for you, while you live your own life instead” ---
**Author:** ![FreeRadical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/958977/32.png) [@FreeRadical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreeRadical)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/43 "2014-06-18T06:53:07Z")
:smack:…commonly miss-quoted as being Japanese or of Confucius (Chinese but much later, supporters of whom repeatedly attempted to discredit Sun Tzu’s very existence as the use of deceptions & spies was contrary to the philosophy around Confucius teachings in origin but the quote is in fact from “Sun Tzu - The Art of War”. :rolleyes: The reason it is often miss-appropriated is that its origins date back to the 6th century B.C. but as much of the eastern wisdoms of that age were passed from teacher to student, father to son by the aural tradition (Chinese whispers, LoL) so many variations of the original can be attained & hence so many quite different interpretations as to its meaning. :dubious: Over the years many variations of the Chinese original have arisen but as far as I’m aware there are no other references to any other similar variations of the quote; “If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the body of your enemy float by”, as any earlier than around 512 B.C. :eek: As for its entry into our modern lives, we can blame the script writer of the 1993 film “Rising Sun” starring Sean Connery who quotes (wrongly) it as being Japanese. 😕:smack::o Bearing in mind that the wisdom behind the Art of War has in effect been embedded in the everyday culture of the ordinary Chinese people for approximately 2500 years, a legacy if it were compared to a more modern more western/middle eastern text it would be like attributing the New Testament to the Profit Muhammad or the Torah to Buddha. :eek: As is obvious in these two examples I give, until a wisdom is recorded in a more permanent fashion & with the absence of literacy for the the worlds general population, most wisdoms have had one main method of delivery, the aural tradition. 🆒 The written versions of Sun Tzu’s Art of War (13 Chapters) are in fact written on bamboo, the earliest western translation was into French circa 1772 & not fully into English until between 1905 & 1910, started by a British officer Everard Ferguson Calthrop, then both finished and published by Lionel Giles. :rolleyes: World leaders as diverse as Mao Zedong, General Vo Nguyen Giap, General Douglas MacArthur and leaders of Imperial Japan have drawn inspiration from the work & in more modern times the Art of War has been adapted in the training of modern business leaders as a philosophical approach to business. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/44 "2014-06-18T07:05:53Z")
As has already been noted, this phrase doesn’t appear in “The Art of War”. :smack: Why did you bother posting a long explanation that you could have established was wrong with 2 minutes on Google? 😕 That sort of thing makes baby Jesus sad. ☹ And it makes me angry. :mad: And it makes Cecil go: :dubious: And it should make you embarrassed. :o ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/45 "2014-06-18T07:12:13Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > **Everything’s new to someone. I guess I got to be it tonight.** I’m not surprised, mind, but it is the first time I’ve heard/read that. If enough people sit by the river for long enough, something new to somebody will float by. (Coincidence? I think not.) ---
**Author:** ![FreeRadical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/958977/32.png) [@FreeRadical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreeRadical)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/46 "2014-06-18T08:59:47Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > As has already been noted, this phrase doesn’t appear in “The Art of War”. :smack: > > Why did you bother posting a long explanation that you could have established was wrong with 2 minutes on Google? 😕 > > That sort of thing makes baby Jesus sad. ☹ > > And it makes me angry. :mad: > > And it makes Cecil go: :dubious: > > And it should make you embarrassed. :o Actually I have researched the subject matter in a lot of detail, confirmed by Google amongst others as I wanted to ensure accuracy, specifically dates & names. If you read my post thoroughly I explain how the phrase has passed down through 2500 years of aural tradition. Like the New Testament, it was not put together as one book in one go & followers of Confucous philosophy, much later on attempted to remove much of Sun Tzu’s work. Not all of which has survived in its physical written form & with the aural tradition origins can be easily misplaced, the point is the book “The Art Of War” was not even in existence in its complete form during Sun Tzu’s lifetime. Teachings were written on bamboo. I have provided my sources, evidence & opinions. All you have done is disagree, provided no alternative explanation as to the source of the quote & you have not presented a forum worthy debatable point. Perhaps you should refine your Google search, starting with looking up Sun Tzu, the original Chinese major contributor to what we now know as “The Art of War”. The modern translation is not my point, the quote was from Sun Tzu’s original works. Type the quote in to Google & you will see… ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/47 "2014-06-18T09:19:29Z")
> [@FreeRadical](#): > > I have provided my sources, evidence & opinions. No, you haven’t. You’ve rambled on incoherently and when questioned responded with “google it”. So let’s try again. What is your most reliable source for this idea that this is an actual quote from a more authentic Sun Tzu? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/48 "2014-06-18T09:52:26Z")
> [@FreeRadical](#): > > The modern translation is not my point, the quote was from Sun Tzu’s original works. Then you should be able to provide the name of a source where this was printed prior to 1995. :rolleyes: If you can’t do that, then you have no reason whatsoever to believe that it \*was \*ever printed prior to 1995.🆒 Can you do this simple thing? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/49 "2014-06-18T11:55:58Z")
Funny, it doesn’t sound Tsuish. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/50 "2014-06-18T13:27:55Z")
If we wait long enough, a properly-referenced citation may just pass in front of us. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/51 "2014-06-18T13:47:37Z")
> [@Necros](#): > > So, SDMBers, I turn to you. Can anyone find an actual Japanese proverb that says this or something similar? Can you find it in Japanese? Can you even find a pre-1993 usage or reference? I think I’m ready to chalk it up to a meme/UL/heard-it-from-a-friend-of-a-fried-who-used-to-be-an-old-Japanese-person type of thing. It’s cited in the 1983 postscript to the novel \*The Name Of The Rose. \* > **[The Name of the Rose](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3RQX3XFeNuIC&lpg=PA550&dq=sit%2Briver%2Byour%2Benemy%2Bwill%2Bfloat%2Bby&pg=PA550&hl=en)** > > “Explodes with pyrotechnic inventions, literally as well as figuratively. Hold on till the end.”—New York Times“Whether you're into Sherlock Holmes, Montaillou, Borges, the nouvelle critique, the Rule of St. Benedict, metaphysics, library design, or... I’ll guess we have to look to Italian texts to see any earlier origin, or maybe Umberto Eco made it up. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/52 "2014-06-18T17:05:08Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ll guess we have to look to Italian texts to see any earlier origin, or maybe Umberto Eco made it up. Eco could easily have picked it up from a non-Italian source. The dude is insanely well-read. Of note: He calls it an “Indian proverb.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/53 "2014-06-18T19:31:46Z")
Which brings us right back to “dot or feather ?”. We’ve gone recursive ! ---
**Author:** ![y7xzh1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e9c0ed/32.png) [@y7xzh1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/y7xzh1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/54 "2014-06-20T08:25:19Z")
hey,i am a chinese ,and i know this Confucius （BC551-BC479）is stand on a hill,he is watching the river down the mountain. then he GET emotion SAY: the time (universal) LIKE this river ,you cant chase past so,you got to observer everything in every moment,if you want gets inspiration。 it sound like"shi zhe ru si fu"in chinese but it changed in japanese ,japanese means:you wait ,they fucked and it is not from japanese fairy tale ,not from Art of War by Sun Tzu yes ,sun tzu always use strategy with patiently ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/55 "2014-06-20T13:15:41Z")
I’ve been sitting by this damned river for almost an hour already, and I still haven’t seen my enemy float by. What a waste of time! ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/56 "2014-06-20T17:40:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If we wait long enough, a properly-referenced citation may just pass in front of us. I think I’d rather wait for the roast duck. (Does anyone else find it really unsettling to see your own posts in zombies and have no initial memory of posting them?) ---
**Author:** ![hbeez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/977dab/32.png) [@hbeez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hbeez)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/57 "2014-07-12T22:20:52Z")
The “proverb” is used in Jame Clavell’s 1975 novel Shōgun. In it on page 622 (of my pdf) Buntaro says, “It’s only a matter of waiting beside a river long enough for the bodies of your enemies to float by…”. The entire paragraph is: ``` The vein on Buntaro’s forehead was throbbing and he was talking almost to himself. “They’ll pay. All of them. The traitors. It’s only a matter of waiting beside a river long enough for the bodies of your enemies to float by, neh? I’ll wait and I’ll spit on their heads soon, very soon. I’ve promised myself that.” He looked at her. “I hate traitors and adulterers. And all liars!” ``` ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/58 "2014-07-12T23:10:40Z")
“Death to all fanatics!” - my college roommate Andrew, c. 1983 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/59 "2016-02-13T13:11:19Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Or **mssmith** studied under Keynes! I hope Keynes wasn’t a big fat guy. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602/60 "2016-02-13T23:30:13Z")
If you sit by the river long enough, you will realize you have been sitting by the river too long. If you sit by a long enough river…no, wait. You cannot sit by the same river twice…aw, forget it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-proverb-floating-enemies-river-sitting/547602.md?page=4)