Dump? Perhaps you’ve heard of various funeral rituals on the water? That’s why references to this being an Indian saying ring true to me, considering the Ganges’ importance.
Not from Japan I haven’t. If you’d asked me any that involved a river, I’d just think of the ones you see in the movies where they light the boat on fire, again, not really in keeping with the saying.
Do they not float offerings to the dead down the river in Japan? Isn’t there a “day of the dead” that includes floating lanterns in rivers?
Regardless, there are plenty of examples in Asia of floating remains, usually cremated, down the river as part of a funeral and this thread was started as questioning whether the saying was of Japanese origin.
I must confess I don’t really get this saying. Was it common practice to dump corpses in rivers at some point?
That was my understanding. Corpses and other crap. (Also why the crow’s caw is supposed to be “death”) So it’s basically “Waste your life watching corpses float by. That’s a plan, sure.” I have seen this in only one source though, so wouldn’t bet my life on it being true.
What? No. It is more “time wounds all heels.”
Groucho Marx was Japanese?!?
I consider this question pretty much resolved by the Confucius quote interpretation. However, it would still be interesting to track down the earliest use of the misinterpretation, if possible. And, for better or worse, this thread seems to be the place of record on the internet for doing so. So, I’d like to note that by constraining my year on Google Books, I’ve found the oldest reference so far:
Waters of the New World: Houston to Nantucket
By Jan De Hartog
1961
page vi (preface)
There is a Chinese proverb “Do not pursue your
enemy; sit down on the river’s bank and wait for his
body to float by.” In the stillness of the bayous on the
Gulf of Mexico, the solitude of the Florida lakes, the
silver expanse of the Sounds on the Atlantic seaboard, I
came to realize the wisdom of that adage. The point of
it, I discovered, was not that the enemy’s body would
eventually drift by; it was simply a device to halt the
panting warrior, make him drop his weapon and sit
down. Once he had done so, and started to look at the
water, the reeds, the sky and the clouds, he was bound
to be touched by the dawning realization of his own
evanescence in the timeless pageant of nature. He would
start musing about life, love, death, immortality, and
forget about his enemy.
This is hilarious!
This being the topic of this thread, let me mention something slightly related, in that I saw it in a comic book in Japan many years ago, and it expresses some of the same idea:
Take the famous 3 Daimyos, all vying to become the next Shogun: Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu. They all see a monkey up in a tree, making noise, generally being annoying. Their styles on how to handle the situation differ (and reflect how they followed their path toward becoming Shogun):
Nobunaga: “Shoot it down!”
Hideyoshi: “Talk to it, persuade it to come down from the tree.”
Ieyasu: “Wait a while, and it will come down by itself.”
There is also a version involving birds:
Nice. I think I’ve seen this version before, too. (Substitute cuckoo for monkey)
There is also one about three people and a silk handkerchief (or similar) placed on top of a door that I vaguely remember. Each opens the door. The first guy draws his sword and cuts the handkerchief in two as it falls. The second pulls his sword but stops before cutting, having realized there is no danger. The third immediately sees that there is no danger and never pulls his sword at all.
That one might not be related to the first two at all, though.
After thinking about it in many ways, I concluded that this quote misrepresented Sun Tzu’s The Art of War.
The hint was found in Dingolover 6969’s reply.
In Jan De Hartog’s book, he quotes,
“Do not pursue your enemy; sit down on the river’s bank and wait for his body to float by.”
Here, the first part before “;” is a translation of the original sentence, and the second part is added to help understanding. This is often the case. In Korea, it is often translated as follows.
“Don’t pressure a cornered enemy; a rat can bite a cat, too (적을 궁지에 몰지마라; 쥐도 고양이를 문다).”
Therefore, in my opinion, this is that this is a misrepresentation of Jan De Hartog’s quote from The Art of War, and the original Chinese sentence and translation are as follows.
歸師勿遏 圍師必闕 窮寇勿迫
- Do not interfere with an army that is returning home (歸師勿遏).
- When you surround an army, leave an outlet free (圍師必闕).
- Do not press a desperate foe too hard (窮寇勿迫).
Among these, 窮寇勿迫 was quoted by Jan De Hartog.