# Japanese romanization **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 27, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370 "2004-04-27T22:54:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arhat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@Arhat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/1 "2004-04-27T22:54:59Z")
Do most non-English speaking Japanese people understand romanization? In other words, if I were to write _domou arigatou_ to the average non-English speaking Japanese person, would they understand it, or do I need to look up the Kanji (and try to figure out how to input it)? ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/2 "2004-04-28T00:07:31Z")
I think the average Japanese person would have to speak a language that uses those letters, and understands the sounds they make in order to comprehend romanized Japanese. I tried to search on the topic, but came up with nothing, so it’s just a guess. . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sandlegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@Sandlegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandlegs)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/3 "2004-04-28T01:24:01Z")
Yes, most japanese people understand the romanized japanese alphabet. One of the reasons that most people know it is because of the way that keyboards are. most keyboards in japan are pretty much like english QWERTY keyboards. So, i’m guessing that most people who use computers in Japan (a lot i’m guessing) know romanji. The only exception that i can think of is older people who didn’t really get in on technology, or people that lead a very traditional Japanese life. i do know that it takes a japanese person a little longer to read romanized characters as compared to hiragana and kanji. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/4 "2004-04-28T04:18:59Z")
> [@Sandlegs](#): > > So, i’m guessing that most people who use computers in Japan (a lot i’m guessing) > know romanji. The only exception that i can think of is older people who didn’t really get in on technology, or people that lead a very traditional Japanese life. > > i do know that it takes a japanese person a little longer to read romanized characters as compared to hiragana and kanji. The first place where I worked in Japan had a few employees who used computers and word processors and couldn’t read roman characters without tremendous effort. They used the kana input method, but I hardly see anyone use it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Sandlegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@Sandlegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandlegs)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/5 "2004-04-28T05:31:02Z")
was this the 1980’s **jovan**? the last time i saw one of those kana keyboards was on the show 3-2-1 Contact. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/6 "2004-04-28T06:30:13Z")
Most likely. Enlgish is taught to pretty much all Japanese school children. The “average” Japanese might not be able to speak English, but he/she certainly can read it and can recognize Japanese words written in _Romanji_ (the Latin alphabet). ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/7 "2004-04-28T07:21:55Z")
> [@Sandlegs](#): > > was this the 1980’s **jovan**? > > the last time i saw one of those kana keyboards was on the show 3-2-1 Contact. Nope, this was the 90s. Although they were all in their 40s, 50s and 60s and this was in a rural area. I’m typing this very reply on a kana keyboard. Most computer keyboards have kana printed on the keys still. I just haven’t seen anyone use this method since I left that job. [nitpick]It’s _roma-ji_[/nitpick]] ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/8 "2004-04-28T07:35:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Most likely. English is taught to pretty much all Japanese school children. And they actually learn romaji for use with Japanese a few years before they start learning English. Of course, as **Sandlegs** said, they cannot read it very quickly. In my experience they can sometimes get confused between the two major romanization systems when writing and often forget some of the more difficult conversions (with words such as ‘Micchan’, for example). ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/9 "2004-04-28T07:36:51Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > [nitpick]It’s _roma-ji_[/nitpick]] You’re not a sci.lang.japan poster, by any chance? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/10 "2004-04-28T15:12:18Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > You’re not a sci.lang.japan poster, by any chance? 🙂 Dang it, I just snorted Diet Coke on my keyboard. **jovan** can’t be a sci.lang.japan poster 'cause he hasn’t made any snarky comments about learning Japanese via anime yet… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/11 "2004-04-28T15:22:01Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > You’re not a sci.lang.japan poster, by any chance? 🙂 Oh, my, heaven forbids! ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/12 "2004-04-28T17:05:49Z")
My exposure to romaji came from seeing all the Japanese baseball teams and I noticed that the way Japanese names are Romanized in Japan and appear on uniforms changes when those same players come to the U.S. For example, in Japan a pitcher was Akinori Ohtsuka now that he plays in San Diego he is Akinori Otsuka Yet, the pronunciation of his name did not change. And another player has Johjima as his name, but if you read about him in the English-language press in Japan, his name is Jojima. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/13 "2004-04-28T17:29:40Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > My exposure to romaji came from seeing all the Japanese baseball teams and I noticed that the way Japanese names are Romanized in Japan and appear on uniforms changes when those same players come to the U.S. > > For example, > in Japan a pitcher was Akinori Ohtsuka > now that he plays in San Diego he is Akinori Otsuka > > Yet, the pronunciation of his name did not change. > > And another player has Johjima as his name, but if you read about him in the English-language press in Japan, his name is Jojima. Japanese has long and short vowel sounds. The long and short are different from what we mean by long and short in English and refer to the “length” of the vowel sound. In regular romanization systems, “Jojima” would be either “Joujima” (how the name is spelled in Japanese) or “Joojima” (which emphasizes the long “o” sound). Japanese often emphasize the long “o” sound by spelling it, “oh”, which is less confusing for most English speakers. But the long vowel is also often dropped when romanizing a Japanese name, hence “Jojima” (which is pronounced exactly the same way as all the other spellings). Clear as mud? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/14 "2004-04-28T17:35:51Z")
Thanks, this is the third time it’s been explained to me. And I’m a man who took two linguistics classes in college. And travelled to Japan three times. And you know what, **It still doesn’t make any sense to me** :smack: But thanks for the effort. I have decided to officially put this into the “that’s just the way it is” category of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/15 "2004-04-28T17:51:21Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > Thanks, this is the third time it’s been explained to me. And I’m a man who took two linguistics classes in college. And travelled to Japan three times. > > And you know what, > > **It still doesn’t make any sense to me** :smack: Which part? The whole “long vowel” thing? Japanese doesn’t have syllables. Instead, it has mora. Each mora is spoken for the same _length_ of time. One way to understand the long vowel is to imagine a metronome ticking, and say one mora per tick. So the name “Joujima” would be pronounced Jo-u-ji-ma (actually, the ‘u’ is pronounced like an ‘o’ because it comes after an ‘o’, but that’s a different topic). When romanizing the name “Joujima”, it would be correct to write it as Joujima, Johjima, or Joojima. The first one is the most “correct”, but I think that the second one gives the best “feel” for the pronunciation for a native English speaker. However, “Jojima” is just plain wrong, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/16 "2004-04-28T18:26:31Z")
The long vowel is also sometimes represented by a line over the letter. For example, most people don’t realize that each ‘o’ in Tokyo is long, but sometimes you’ll see it written with the lines over the o. The problem with romanizations: Tookyoo – the first instinct of most English speakers is to pronounce the double o as in “food”. Something like [two-kyew] Toukyou – this is basically a transliteration and could be considered the “most correct” since in Japanese a ‘u’ us added after a syllable ending in o (ko, to, so, etc.) to make it a long o. However, English speakers are equally bewildered by this romanization and want to pronounce the ‘u’ sound. Thus [to-ooh-kyo-ooh] Tohkyoh – this just looks strange doesn’t it. The ‘h’ after an ‘o’ works in some cases perhaps because of the word “Oh” in English (as in “Oh, shit!”). It’s a bit misleading though because there really isn’t any ‘h’ sound present at all. I prefer the line over the letter, but I can’t figure out how to do it on the keyboard without special fonts. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/17 "2004-04-28T18:55:40Z")
> [@Jayrot](#): > > I prefer the line over the letter, but I can’t figure out how to do it on the keyboard without special fonts. Windows has a small “character map” app that will allow you to copy and paste non-keyboard characters. The easy way to access it is to open a run dialog (Start–\> run) and type “charmap”. However, the characters might or might not show up on other people’s computers. Here’s an example of Tokyo with bars over the 'o’s: **Tōkyō** The thing about long vowels is that people who are used to seeing “Tokyo” don’t realize that, for instance, it should take the same amount of time to say Tōkyō as it does to say Hiroshima or Okinawa. I can even use the character map to copy-and-paste a Japanese font, but I don’t know if many people will be able to see it. Just in case, though, here’s Tōkyō written in katakana: とうきょう と = To う = u きょ =kyo う = u Looking at it that way, it’s obvious that it has four syllables (well, technically they’re mora). ---
**Author:** ![Arhat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@Arhat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arhat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/18 "2004-04-28T20:10:46Z")
Thanks for all the help, guys. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/19 "2004-04-28T23:38:25Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > Which part? The whole “long vowel” thing? > > Japanese doesn’t have syllables. Instead, it has mora. Each mora is spoken for the same _length_ of time. One way to understand the long vowel is to imagine a metronome ticking, and say one mora per tick. So the name “Joujima” would be pronounced Jo-u-ji-ma (actually, the ‘u’ is pronounced like an ‘o’ because it comes after an ‘o’, but that’s a different topic). > > When romanizing the name “Joujima”, it would be correct to write it as Joujima, Johjima, or Joojima. The first one is the most “correct”, but I think that the second one gives the best “feel” for the pronunciation for a native English speaker. However, “Jojima” is just plain wrong, IMHO. Yes, you may think it’s wrong, but that’s still the way it’s done. Another example, with a family name that is much more common in the U.S. is Ito. In Japan I would see this name rendered as Itoh. But in the U.S., it is almost always Itoh. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370/20 "2004-04-29T07:21:32Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > Which part? The whole “long vowel” thing? > > Japanese doesn’t have syllables. Instead, it has mora. Each mora is spoken for the same _length_ of time. Uhmmmmm no, not really. It DOES have syllables. Syllables are either a vowel, or a consonant + vowel, a vowel + consonant , or a consonant + vowel + consonant. A mora is a unit of sound that determines stress (in some languages). The difference between it and syllable is (in general, YMMV): - the first consonant of a syllable plus its following vowel - the final consonant of a syllable - long vowels are two moras So the /t/ in “cat” is a mora, but NOT a syllable. If we take my examples of syllables the mora patterns are thus ( C = consonant, V = Vowel) V = one mora CV = one mora VC = two moras CVC = two moras But all are one syllable. However, where we analyze words based upon syllables, Japanese does it using moras. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-romanization/242370.md?page=2)