# Japanese whale whores **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021 "2010-01-07T12:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/201 "2010-01-17T15:36:31Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > “As I understand it, the SS deploy ropes with colored buoys the Japanese can easily avoid.” > > I think any maritime authority would take a pretty dim view of that argument. Making large vessels avoid things that could foul thier props is an inherently dangerous activity. > > Otara Indeed. Watch the stupid show and you will see that those Sea Shepherds deploying the entangling gear are making every (clumsy) effort to prevent the Japanese ships from avoiding them. As has been said upthread, a ship with its propulsion and possibly its rudder fouled is in a distinctly dangerous situation even in calm seas. Clearing the mess requires some specific exposure to danger for selected crew members. Weather and sea conditions can prevent these efforts or make them even more hazardous. At the extreme end of the sliding scale, really bad weather endangers the fouled ship itself, and can prevent effective life saving efforts. No, the SS are not deploying this gear merely to force the whalers to practice their avoidance steering. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/202 "2010-01-17T15:56:01Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Indeed. Watch the stupid show and you will see that those Sea Shepherds deploying the entangling gear are making every (clumsy) effort to prevent the Japanese ships from avoiding them. > > As has been said upthread, a ship with its propulsion and possibly its rudder fouled is in a distinctly dangerous situation even in calm seas. Clearing the mess requires some specific exposure to danger for selected crew members. Weather and sea conditions can prevent these efforts or make them even more hazardous. At the extreme end of the sliding scale, really bad weather endangers the fouled ship itself, and can prevent effective life saving efforts. > > No, the SS are not deploying this gear merely to force the whalers to practice their avoidance steering. No, the Sea Shepherds see this as a war, and they are using every means they can within the bounds of international opinion to skirt being viewed as pirates and terrorists. Their main objective is to cost the Whaling fleet money. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bb73d2/32.png) [@Evil\_Jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Jon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/203 "2010-01-17T16:03:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, it’s a case of “he said, she said” and who you believe. As I understand it, the SS deploy ropes with colored buoys the Japanese can easily avoid. It’s a blockade, and the Japanese can avoid it, or go over it and risk fouling their props. In retaliation, the Japanese directly attempt to foul the SS’s props. The SS’s response is, “hey, that’s an attack. Bring it on bitches; we’re pirates!” It’s clear to me you have never seen the show. The SS make every attempt to place the prop fouler in a way that they are unavoidable. Due to their incompetence I’ve only seen them be successful once, which the whalers were eventually able to clear. (I think they may of had to put divers in the water which is certainly not safe, my memories a bit fuzzy.) I have never seen the whalers attempt to foul the SS props. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/204 "2010-01-17T16:05:14Z")
> [@Evil\_Jon](#): > > It’s clear to me you have never seen the show. The SS make every attempt to place the prop fouler in a way that they are unavoidable. Due to their incompetence I’ve only seen them be successful once, which the whalers were eventually able to clear. (I think they may of had to put divers in the water which is certainly not safe, my memories a bit fuzzy.) They have long poles with cameras on them, and possibly some removal tools. Specifically for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/205 "2010-01-17T16:14:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Jon](#): > > I have never seen the whalers attempt to foul the SS props. I’ve seen Japanese whalers attempt to kill the crew of the Ady Gil in the Antarctic so I’m going with that. Get back to me when the SS destroys the Shonan Maru and its crew has to be rescued from Antarctic waters. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bb73d2/32.png) [@Evil\_Jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Jon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/206 "2010-01-17T16:16:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > They have long poles with cameras on them, and possibly some removal tools. Specifically for this purpose. Ah ok, I think I may have mixed it up with an episode of Deadliest Catch.⭕D ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/207 "2010-01-17T16:21:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, the Sea Shepherds see this as a war, and they are using every means they can within the bounds of international opinion to skirt being viewed as pirates and terrorists. Their main objective is to cost the Whaling fleet money. Yes, they see it as a war, and they are using “every means”-- but the reason we are having this discussion is because those “bounds of international opinion” are not hard and fast, but still in a formative stage. Whether their actions are “within” or without is still to be decided. It has been said upthread that the Japanese market for whale meat is less than profitable, and most meat ends up in secondary consumption. Further, it has been said that the primary motivation for whaling is actually nationalistic pride, not profit. I do not know if these statements are true, but if they are, then driving up harvest costs will likely have little effect on Japanese whaling. I believe that the Sea Shepherds (or at least Paul) recognize this, and their actions are designed to influence world public opinion rather than merely influence a line item cost. Getting people to feel less accepting of “the Japanese” is even more powerful than raising ire at “the whalers”. But they have to play the game of ostensibly costing the Japanese money, because people do not respond well to causes that are seen as directly trying to manipulate public emotions. The whole charade is far more complex than it seems at first glance. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/208 "2010-01-17T16:24:55Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’ve seen Japanese whalers attempt to kill the crew of the Ady Gil in the Antarctic so I’m going with that. Get back to me when the SS destroys the Shonan Maru and its crew has to be rescued from Antarctic waters. I think the whalers are entirely justified in attempting to kill the sea shepherds, actually. But that isn’t what that video shows anyway. Read the COLREGS if you get bored and come back to me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/209 "2010-01-17T16:44:10Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Yes, they see it as a war, and they are using “every means”-- but the reason we are having this discussion is because those “bounds of international opinion” are not hard and fast, but still in a formative stage. Whether their actions are “within” or without is still to be decided. > > It has been said upthread that the Japanese market for whale meat is less than profitable, and most meat ends up in secondary consumption. Further, it has been said that the primary motivation for whaling is actually nationalistic pride, not profit. I do not know if these statements are true, but if they are, then driving up harvest costs will likely have little effect on Japanese whaling. > > I believe that the Sea Shepherds (or at least Paul) recognize this, and their actions are designed to influence world public opinion rather than merely influence a line item cost. Getting people to feel less accepting of “the Japanese” is even more powerful than raising ire at “the whalers”. But they have to play the game of ostensibly costing the Japanese money, because people do not respond well to causes that are seen as directly trying to manipulate public emotions. > > The whole charade is far more complex than it seems at first glance. Well I think they are dual objectives. Driving up the cost will eventually run into the hard limit of how much Japan is willing to spend on the national pride. Especially if no one gives a shit about eating whale meat. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/210 "2010-01-17T17:03:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’ve seen Japanese whalers attempt to kill the crew of the Ady Gil in the Antarctic so I’m going with that. Get back to me when the SS destroys the Shonan Maru and its crew has to be rescued from Antarctic waters. The SS have actually rammed whaling ships in several occasions. The fact that they are mostly unsuccessful at everything they try doesn’t mean that they are not trying. Maybe the whaling fleet needs to build a glass ship so the SS can finally break something and they can be victims. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/211 "2010-01-17T18:11:08Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > I think the whalers are entirely justified in attempting to kill the sea shepherds, actually. > > But that isn’t what that video shows anyway. Read the COLREGS if you get bored and come back to me 🙂 Well, that’s nice. Anyway, I’d rather the Japanese whalers read the COLREGS, and while they’re reading I"d like them to read the treaties they’ve signed. Maybe they could also explain the Nisshin Maru: [pdf here.](http://www.ifaw.org/assets/Media_Center/Press_Releases/asset_upload_file187_51771.pdf) > [@](#): > > The environmental risks associated with JARPA II were clearly highlighted by the incident in 2007 involving the Nisshin Maru factory ship. On 15 February 2007 a major explosion aboard the Nisshin Maru killed a member of the crew and ignited a fire that disabled the vessel for 10 days. > > At the time of the incident, and until its engines were repaired and restarted, the vessel was located in an ice-exposed area of the Ross Sea around 200 nautical miles from Cape Adare, an Antarctic Specially Protected Area. As the vessel was within the New Zealand Search and Rescue Region the New Zealand Government responded to the “Mayday” message and facilitated the provision of assistance to the vessel. > > Japan declined to report on the Nisshin Maru incident at the 30th or 31st ATCMs and it is difficult to ascertain the full extent of the environmental hazard that the incident posed to the Antarctic environment. However from available reports, including the information paper submitted by New Zealand to the 30th ATCM,38 the incident emerges as one of the most serious emergencies ever to have occurred in Antarctica, and could have resulted in the spillage of chemicals and some or all of the 1,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil onboard the vessel.39 > > There are also concerns at the way in which the master of the vessel and the Japanese authorities responded to the incident at the time of the events and subsequently. Requests by the New Zealand government to remove the vessel from the Antarctic Treaty area were refused, despite the availability of assistance from the Greenpeace vessel, the Esperanza, a Russian-built tug equipped for deep-sea towing. And not only has Japan not subsequently explained the Nisshin Maru incident at the ATCM, but it has sought to close down discussion of the matter. Sounds like these whalers are not only a danger to SS, but they’re an even bigger danger to themselves and the protected Antarctic environment. Nonetheless, assuming they don’t blow themselves up, they’re more than capable of surviving at least 10 days without a working prop or engine. Here’s the wiki entry on the [Nisshin Maru](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisshin_Maru). Here’s an interview with the Ady Gil’s builder and captain [Pete Bethune](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgadHN1X6nU), just for the heck of it. Oh, there’s a cool video of a SS/whaler ramming right after the above vid. Hardly in the same ballpark as the Ady Gil ramming. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/212 "2010-01-17T21:54:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I think they are dual objectives. Driving up the cost will eventually run into the hard limit of how much Japan is willing to spend on the national pride. Especially if no one gives a shit about eating whale meat. I’ll grant you two _means_– but I still think the “play to world opinion without letting the world see how obviously we’re pandering” gets way more use than the “run up the incidental costs”. And both serve one single _end_. > [@levdrakon](#): > > \ > Sounds like these whalers are not only a danger to SS, but they’re an even bigger danger to themselves and the protected Antarctic environment. Nonetheless, assuming they don’t blow themselves up, they’re more than capable of surviving at least 10 days without a working prop or engine.\ The fact that this ship survived 10 days disabled by no means guarantees that this ship or any other will \*always \*survive disabling. That would depend upon sea conditions and other factors at the time. In the instance you cite, the danger to the environment would have been the release of fuel oil and perhaps other chimicals _upon the ship sinking_. There’s no evidence that these shipps or their activities pose any other significant environmental hazard. In fact, the argument could be made that the Sea Shephers are actually increasing the potential environmental hazard by attempting to disable ships, an activity which can only make the possibility of a sinking, thus a spill, more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/213 "2010-02-08T12:33:13Z")
I went to a seminar on whaling and this collision this week. One of the speakers and one member of the audience were master mariners. Their conclusion watching the videos was the same as mine: the whaler was aimed on a near miss course and the skipper of the Ady Gil panicked and went forward. Ady Gil was the stand on vessel because the whaler was to port, whaler should have kept clear, Ady Gil failed to maintain course and speed in a close quarters situation: primary fault whaler, secondary fault Ady Gil. But that isn’t why I’m reviving this thread: check out [this video](http://player.video.news.com.au/theaustralian/#1406667902). So we have one collision which SS are again playing up as being the whalers fault but it’s hard to tell because you can’t tell who created the collision course. Certainly in this one the SS vessel has the whaler to starboard and is the give way vessel so should have turned away but doesn’t. The whaler then turns away but its stern clips the SS vessel as it goes. But the reason I post the link is this: if you think Paul Watson has an ounce of credibility, if you think the bullshit they are spinning at you suckers is tasty, make sure you watch to the end. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/214 "2010-02-08T14:01:22Z")
the clip at the end of the skynews reel is from a ramming that happened over a year ago in the 2009 summer season. See here feb 10th 2009: [http://www.greendaily.com/2009/02/10/was-the-sea-shepherd-ramming-an-accident-see-for-yourself/](http://www.greendaily.com/2009/02/10/was-the-sea-shepherd-ramming-an-accident-see-for-yourself/) Sea Shepherds have admitted to ramming ships to disable before, I don’t have a problem with that, IMO they’re enforcing the Southern Ocean Sanctuary which bans commercial whaling but which governments don’t have the willpower to enforce. I do have a problem with the whalers ramming back, just like you’d have a problem with poachers shooting back at armed national park rangers. Have donated to Sea Shepherds… will keep doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/215 "2010-02-08T14:15:00Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > So we have one collision which SS are again playing up as being the whalers fault but it’s hard to tell because you can’t tell who created the collision course. No it’s not. It is very obvious the whaler turned into the SS ship initiating a collision course. Now, you may say the whaler just wanted to pass by very close and not ram but sure looks like a collision course from the Ady Gil perspective. The whaler turned away but not knowing they would turn away the Ady Gil assumed they’d be run over. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/216 "2010-02-08T15:13:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Jon](#): > > I want to see a Japanese destroyer head down there and end this. That’s what I want. The problem with this course of action is that the area where the whaling fleet and the SS operate is technically claimed by Australia. Most other countries do not recognize this claim, but any direct involvement by the Japanese government risks a confrontation with the Australians both on a diplomatic and possibly military level that Japan is looking to avoid. A Japanese naval ship is likely to be met by an Australian naval ship. The last thing Japan wants is more international attention being directed at the vaildity of their research vs. commercial whaling claims. This is the reason the SS operate where they do as well. They have an area where Australia will give them some token protection for thier actions (or at least look the other way) that they do not have going after other whaling fleets. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/217 "2010-02-08T17:02:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Sea Shepherds have admitted to ramming ships to disable before, I don’t have a problem with that, IMO they’re enforcing the Southern Ocean Sanctuary which bans commercial whaling but which governments don’t have the willpower to enforce. > > I do have a problem with the whalers ramming back, just like you’d have a problem with poachers shooting back at armed national park rangers. The SS are not park rangers. Not even close. If you want to make a comparison between someone speeding and an equivalent SS group hunting down speeders and forcing them off the road, then fine. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/218 "2010-02-08T18:06:18Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Sea Shepherds have admitted to ramming ships to disable before, I don’t have a problem with that, IMO they’re enforcing the Southern Ocean Sanctuary which bans commercial whaling but which governments don’t have the willpower to enforce. > > I do have a problem with the whalers ramming back, just like you’d have a problem with poachers shooting back at armed national park rangers.. You do realize how laughable this position is, right? You are saying that you are okay with someone slapping someone else in the face as long as the other person doesn’t slap him back. Make no mistake, both sides are doing their thing in a grey area of the law. What’s good for one is good for the other. If you think ramming is bad, then nobody does it. If you think ramming is legit, then both sides can do it. Either one is a tenable position. Saying that one side can ram while the other cannot is just ridiculous. And it goes for both sides. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/219 "2010-02-08T23:14:05Z")
As an Australian, it’s not so grey. The Whalers are poaching in Australian waters which would be illegal anyway regardless of the type of fish caught. Second they’re using a factory ship which is forbidden by the IWC south of 40 degrees. see here: “It is forbidden to use a factory ship or a whale catcher attached thereto for the purpose of taking or treating baleen whales in the waters south of 40o South Latitude from 70o West Longitude westward as far as 160o West Longitude.” [http://www.helsinki.fi/~lauhakan/whale/iwc/reg1946/schedule.html](http://www.helsinki.fi/~lauhakan/whale/iwc/reg1946/schedule.html) So the whole issue of research is laughable, it’s illegal commercial fishing in what Australia considers a sanctuary. The Sea Shephereds have appointed themselves the rangers of that park as no-one else was doing it. Australian government largely doesn’t have a problem with that. So yes its ok for the park rangers to use force, it’s not ok for poachers to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021/220 "2010-02-08T23:21:20Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > So the whole issue of research is laughable, it’s illegal commercial fishing in what Australia considers a sanctuary. If this is the case then it seems to me that Australia should be doing something about this instead of relying on incompetent vigilantes. > [@](#): > > The Sea Shephereds have appointed themselves the rangers of that park as no-one else was doing it. Australian government largely doesn’t have a problem with that. So yes its ok for the park rangers to use force, it’s not ok for poachers to fight back. Seriously, vigilantism is a good idea? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whale-whores/524021.md?page=12)