Japanese whale whores

Great Debates
141

You are quite prepared to speculate that the master of the whaler pursued a cleverly thought through plan involving trapping the Gil into going forward into the whaler’s path. Your theory involves the master of the whaler pursuing not only a precision course but doing so with a cleverness equivalent to a pitcher finessing a batsman or something: he has to pursue a course precisely close enough to scare the Gil into going forward, but not so far away as for the Gil to just remain stationary*. You suggest the master of the whaler did this quite deliberately.

Personally I think both vessels were playing very dangerous silly bastard games with each other, then things went wrong. But if you really want to start on the conspiracy theories, you might want to think about your comment above, and where that leads you.

*yet at the same time you reject the idea that the master of the whaler could have just been deliberately on a near miss course because he wouldn’t have been able to control the whaler precisely enough. The contradiction is obvious

142

I haven’t seen anyone bring this up, but I think it’s worth pointing out some additional videos on Youtube. Here’s a view from aboard the Ady Gil:

And a 3-way split-screen:

I’m not really on the side of SS or the whalers and generally think the SS guys are reaping what they sow when the whaling ships employ countermeasures (as I’m sure SS expects). That said, the other videos only cover a short time before the collision, so I had thought the Ady Gil had probably been engaging in some sort of harassment went things go awry. The first video above shows the Ady Gil crew is just sitting around on deck talking about the end of their day, boat idling, hundreds of yards away from the whaling ship. It’s the whaling ship that approaches out of nowhere and provokes the whole situation. Say what you want about the last second actions of the Ady Gil pilot, but it’s hard to see the whaling ship’s actions as anything but extremely dangerous and unnecessary. I guess I had harbored the impression that at least the whalers wouldn’t resort to reverse piracy, but it seems they’re no better than SS now.

143

Huh? Your premise is the whaler intended to steer a course that passed it a couple of feet in front of the SS ship and you say I am demanding finesse in my supposition? Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Look at the videos again. You are sitting there idle when a big ass ship is bearing down on you. As I noted in previous posts the SS crew had mere seconds to respond when they see the whaler turn into them.

You are saying it is the SS skipper’s fault for moving. That in your view you would have just sat there and just assumed (or hoped) the whaler would turn away and pull off an insanely near miss in rough seas.

Bet dollars to dimes you would not have just sat there idle hoping for the best.

From the whaler driver’s perspective he must consider it likely the other ship will take evasive action (who the hell wouldn’t seeing what looks like an imminent ramming if they do nothing?). What evasive action is available to the SS boat? Forward or back is all that is available to it (it is not moving). Backwards is not terribly quick in any ship and this is rough seas. Add that the whaler is turning into the SS ship. What other reasonable action except forward is left to it? So, SS ship goes forward just as whaler reverses its turn. Somehow in your mind this equates to the SS boat ramming the whaler despite the utter absurdity of doing that on purpose.

You have provided no other reasonable courses of action that line up with the timeframes in the videos for what the SS skipper ought to have done in those circumstances.

144

I’ve watched every episode of the two season of “Whale Wars”, and when I do I root for the Japanese. When those Sea Shepherd idiots had to sit helpless and actually watch a while being harpooned and killed, I cheered.

Paul Watson is the most despicable human being I have ever seen. He cares nothing for human life, even the lives of his crew. Listening to him during the many times when the Shepard’s total incompetence resulting in one (or more) of their small boats getting lost makes it crystal clear that he’s not worried because the people on those boats might die, he’s worried because the loss of time while waiting for them to get back could mean losing track of the Japanese.

Watching the other Sea Shepherds – and on a show clearly meant to show them in the best light – makes it clear that “saving” the whales is a secondary reason why they’re out there. They’re mostly there to have fun and adventure and the thrills of acting out piracy.

The claims, both from the Shepherds and various posters here, that the Japanese are whaling illegally are simply false. They are well within the legal boundaries set by the International Whaling Commission and the treaties that the Japanese signed.

That the Japanese may be exploiting a loophole in the laws and agreements does not make it illegal. Loopholes do not equate to illegal.

So what the Shepherds are doing is willfully interfering with the legal activities of a sovereign nation. The only reason that they are not rotting in a Japanese prison is that the Japanese are smart enough to know that the Shepherds do, in fact, have a lot of public support, however illegal their (the Shepherds) activities might be.

The Shepherds are thugs, pirates, criminals, and damned hypocrites. If they really and truly did have as their first priority the saving of the whales, they would put their energies and resources to fighting in the courts and in public opinion (as has been suggested in this thread previously).

The crap in this thread about how the Gil was just sitting idly, when the Japanese security ship appeared and deliberately rammed them, makes me want to scream. Whatever the Gil may have been doing at that moment, there can be no argument that it had previously been harassing the Japanese, and had every intention of harassing them in the future. Saying that the Japanese should have just left it alone because, at the moment, it wasn’t actively attacking, is like saying that if a soldier spots an enemy before the enemy has spotted him, he shouldn’t shoot because the enemy isn’t, at that moment, actively engaged in fighting.

I can’t bring myself to actually wish that Paul Watson were dead, but the world would be a far, far better place without him in it.

145

Let’s say some neighborhood kids like to egg your house on a regular basis. One day you decide to drive your car at them in an attempt to scare them. In the process you smash one of their bikes coming perilously close to squishing the kid on it.

That’s a-ok in your book?

You are railing that the SS people should avail themselves of the law but then give a pass to the Japanese when they deliberately run over a boat. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If the SS people should be in court (or use public opinion) to stop the whalers then the reverse should be true too.

146

I agree with Roadfood 100%.

The IWC was initially an organization created by whaling counties for conservation of whaling. It was hijacked by non-whaling countries (including Mongolia and Switzerland which have lots of whales near their coasts that need protecting) and the whaling moratorium was enacted.

All Japan has to do is leave the IWC and they can legally hunt as many whales they want without having to pretend its research.

147

That’s not a particularly good analogy. Let’s say that this kid likes to pelt my car with chemicals when I drive down the street, slashes my tired during the night while I’m sleeping, or attempts to play chicken with me when I’m trying to pull into the drive way.

It’d be kind of interesting if the whalers actually started to use the Sea Shepherd tactics against them. Should they be charged for that? Maybe the whalers were wrong in this instance but there’s no denying that the Sea Shepherd’s have contributed to the circumstances that make these kinds of incidents possible.

148

They do use the same tactics. They charter planes out of Australia to spot and follow the SS, so the whalers can avoid them. They hire security boats to play cat and mouse with SS so they can go off and hunt whales. They arm themselves with water cannons and then escalate to things like sonic weapons, and now following the same pattern of escalation they are actively trying to kill the Sea Shepherds.

Yes, it is interesting.

149

All those things are either defensive or ways to purposely AVOID conflict. The whalers would be 100% happy to never see a SS. On the other hand the SS actively and try to provoke the whalers. It seems to me their main goal is to get the whalers to kill one of them for publicity’s sake.

If I was being harassed by a SS batmobile all day (I assume this video follows hours of prop fouling and acid attacks) I’d try to intimidate the little SOBs too. The captain probably miscalculated and accidentally rammed it. And if he did it on purpose, ‘props’ to him.:smiley:

150

I agree the SS provoke the Japanese.

That said, and not saying we can apply US law to such a case, in the US you cannot retaliate in such a fashion. Dunno if you could call this attempted murder but certainly it is something approaching that.

The SS guys want to foul the rudders and plant stink bombs. Annoying to be sure but not deadly.

What the Japanese ship did came perilously close to being lethal. At the least willful endangerment (I may have made that up but sounds good).

151

In the U.S. the whalers would have gotten restraining orders against the Sea Shepherds and the SS would have been arrested a long time ago for violating it. They whalers don’t seem to have any legal recourse on the high seas as Australia doesn’t seen keen on doing anything about the Sea Shepherds.

Isn’t being adrift in the ocean dangerous?

Odesio

152

So how does your supposition work without finesse? You just aren’t thinking it through. On your theory, the whaler has to be on a course that is far enough in front of the Gil that it doesn’t get away by going forward, but close enough that the Gil is scared into going forward. The difference between these positions is a matter of a few feet.

Frankly, you are not even trying to get to grips with the evidence, and you aren’t even attempting to address the precise points I’ve raised. For example, if the whaler was on a collision course, or so close that the master of the Gil felt he had no option but to try to evade, why doesn’t the guy visible in the video on top of the Gil panic and move hastily aft until the Gil moves forward? I raised this before and you just ignored it. The obvious answer is that he could see that the whaler was going to pass clear in front. In other words, the whaler master wasn’t aiming at the Gil.

You’ve also ignored the question in my last post. You want to go all conspiracy theory on one vessel finessing the other into a collision, but you conclude that it was the SS that gained by the collision. If you want to be consistent and you are prepared to assume intent, join the dots.

You aren’t reading my posts. Try again.

153

You aren’t reading mine.

I posted a timeline of events earlier. You have taken potshots at it but provided none of your own. Watch the numerous videos. Work the timeline. Show me where I am wrong.

Also, I do not see where I am saying the SS gained at all by the collision. Quite the opposite. They lost a multi-million dollar boat they acquired all of 3 months ago (roughly) and the crew came dangerously close to dying in gruesome fashion. They got some publicity to be sure but hard to see how that is worth it. Short of having a suicidal crew I cannot imagine them willfully running their boat into another that is more than 100x bigger.

154

I don’t agree. I think that the volunteers for the show are passionate enough (about stopping whaling) to take risks. Even deadly ones.

They don’t want to die, but I don’t think that they’re stupid enough to believe that they are not placing themselves at risk.

155

There’s all kinds of risks and many people willfully choose to take them (e.g auto racing).

Ramming your boat in Antarctic waters into a ship 100x as big and made of steel to your fiberglass/kevlar is not risky, it is suicidal. Not the same thing as risk-taking.

156

I have seen people at all levels choosing to take what to normal people would be an intolerable risk thinking that it is the responsibility of others to avoid disaster. The thinking being “there will be no accident if the other boat turns”. Not different from “I have the right of way so I will speed up and that asshole better brake” you see every day on the road. Yeah sure, you will “win” the accident but I would rather avoid it altogether.

These SS dudes are not big on personal responsibility. Their whole world view spins around “not touching” and hoping that the public will hate the big bad whalers when they throw themselves under the propellers and the whalers fail to avoid them in time. The minor detail that people might actually die is not quite present in the minds of the little guys and icing on the cake for Paul Watson since it won’t be him.

157

If throwing themselves into a whaler’s propeller is what they want they have had ample opportunity to do so. Yet they haven’t.

From this I deduce that while they willingly accept the risks in what they do they are not actually suicidal and willing to die at the first opportunity for their cause.

Purposely driving that little boat into the big one in those waters is tantamount to trying to kill yourself (and the others with you as well).

158

Why is everyone still talking like the SS guys caused this particular incident? Whatever else you think about SS or the whalers, the third video clearly shows the whaler at fault for the collision, intentional or not. He should never have been that close. Were the situation reversed, obviously the SS guys would be at fault. Are you so stuck with your knee-jerk reaction that you can’t acknowledge simple reality?

159

The whalers just want to be left alone.

Cause: SS harassing whaling ship for hours with prop fouler and stink bombs.
Effect: Whaler tries an intimidation tactic but miscalculates and squishes their boat.

The SS have rammed whalers before and I think Paul Watson has a tshirt that proudly lists every ramming incident that he’s been involved with.

160

I don’t reach the same conclusions watching the video that you appear to reach.

The SS guys are the ones approaching the whalers, crowding them, and placing themselves in the path of the ships. That is their MO. They want to make the whalers look like the agressors.

They get into an incident on the high seas, then turn to you and bat their long eye lashes, and say what mean guys the Japanese are. This tactic works on enough people to make it worth their while.

I have no problem with anyone being pissed off at the Japanese for continuing to hunt whales. But I think that these SS guys are trying to manipulate my emotions with these (edited) videos and (cheesy) tactics. I don’t like that either.