# Japanese Whaling **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051 "2016-03-24T20:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/1 "2016-03-24T20:52:06Z")
I just saw this news item about a recent whale hunt : [http://news.yahoo.com/japan-fleet-returns-antarctic-whale-hunt-024729619.html](http://news.yahoo.com/japan-fleet-returns-antarctic-whale-hunt-024729619.html) Is there nothing that can be done to stop this? It just seems ridiculous that Japan feels the need to kill so many whales. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/2 "2016-03-24T21:50:08Z")
The Norwegians also hunt whales, but no one ever seems to mention that. The difference is that the Japanese signed an agreement saying that they wouldn’t do it. So really, the issue is that they’re liars than that they’re whale hunters. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/3 "2016-03-24T21:56:49Z")
Understanding the Japanese side of things requires understanding a peculiarity of the Japanese. Many centuries ago, the Japanese became Buddhist. As part of this, there was a drive towards vegetarianism. But, being an Island country where most of their food came from the sea, this wasn’t very practical. So, fish and other sea creatures were declared “vegetables”. The word “meat” in Japanese excludes sea life. And in modern day, the Japanese have no sense that the creatures of the sea are thinking creatures. They’re just food. Their whole diet depends on eating things from the sea. It’s advantageous for them to think of sea life as being mindless. And thus you get things like slicing pieces of “meat” off of live, moving fish being a practice that no one bats an eyelash over, as it gives you the freshest food. Basically, to the Japanese, trying to tell them to not hunt whales is like trying to tell Americans that they should stop killing asparagus. There’s a large hurdle that needs to be overcome first. People who want to stop the Japanese from doing this need to focus less on the “killing vegetables” part of it, like that film of the dolphins being killed in that harbor, and instead focus on publicizing scientific studies on animal cognition. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/4 "2016-03-24T22:36:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Understanding the Japanese side of things requires understanding a peculiarity of the Japanese. > > Many centuries ago, the Japanese became Buddhist. As part of this, there was a drive towards vegetarianism. But, being an Island country where most of their food came from the sea, this wasn’t very practical. So, fish and other sea creatures were declared “vegetables”. The word “meat” in Japanese excludes sea life. > > And in modern day, the Japanese have no sense that the creatures of the sea are thinking creatures. They’re just food. Their whole diet depends on eating things from the sea. It’s advantageous for them to think of sea life as being mindless. > > And thus you get things like slicing pieces of “meat” off of live, moving fish being a practice that no one bats an eyelash over, as it gives you the freshest food. > > Basically, to the Japanese, trying to tell them to not hunt whales is like trying to tell Americans that they should stop killing asparagus. There’s a large hurdle that needs to be overcome first. People who want to stop the Japanese from doing this need to focus less on the “killing vegetables” part of it, like that film of the dolphins being killed in that harbor, and instead focus on publicizing scientific studies on animal cognition. That’s fascinating! I did not know that. Of course, any person who considers these brainy marine mammals as “vegetables” can be properly accused of being a bit "mindless’, himself. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/5 "2016-03-24T22:43:08Z")
The non-historical justification for the whaling is that Minke whales are not a threatened species; it’s currently classified as [Least Concern](http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/2474/0). ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/6 "2016-03-24T22:57:38Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > The non-historical justification for the whaling is that Minke whales are not a threatened species; it’s currently classified as [Least Concern](http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/2474/0). I like whales. I do not like to see them killed. But I also realize that this is an entirely emotional attachment that others have no obligation to share. From a rational perspective whales are mammals. So are pigs. If I am willing to kill pigs for food, I have a hard time justifying to forbid others to kill whales for the same reason. The issue is different, if the whale hunt is threatening the preservation of a species or if, as seems to be the case with Japanese whaling, it is in violation of an international agreement. But barring that, I can hardly say more than “I do not like it.” ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/7 "2016-03-24T23:24:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Many centuries ago, the Japanese became Buddhist. As part of this, there was a drive towards vegetarianism. But, being an Island country where most of their food came from the sea, this wasn’t very practical. So, fish and other sea creatures were declared “vegetables”. It’s true that eating meat was banned at some points in Japanese history. But that was mostly a _tatemae_ (pretense / façade); in reality, commoners still ate meat. And even that _tatemae_ went away in the 19th century. In the Meiji period (mid 19th century through WWI), Japan imported and adopted many western cultures including food/cooking, and meat became an integral part of Japanese cuisine. Which is why many “traditional” Japanese dishes (_sukiyaki_, _shabu-shabu_, _tonkatsu_, _nikujaga_, etc) contain meat. Today, it’s harder to find vegetarian meals in Japan than in the US. Also, I’m not aware of any seafood classified as “vegetables” in Japan. Are you perhaps thinking of some animals classified as birds? (Not all Buddhist denominations require veganism. In Japan, eating poultry and seafood were generally allowed.) > [@](#): > > The word “meat” in Japanese excludes sea life. It does include whale. Wale meat is referred to as whale meat (_kujira niku_) in Japan. Also, word “meat” in English usually excludes seafood too. > [@](#): > > And in modern day, the Japanese have no sense that the creatures of the sea are thinking creatures. They’re just food. Their whole diet depends on eating things from the sea. It’s advantageous for them to think of sea life as being mindless. I don’t think it’s any different from how Americans think of livestock. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/8 "2016-03-24T23:31:56Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Also, word “meat” in English usually excludes seafood too. :dubious: > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s any different from how Americans think of livestock. Americans would accept slicing pieces of meat off a living cow? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/9 "2016-03-24T23:33:41Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > The issue is different, if the whale hunt is threatening the preservation of a species or if, as seems to be the case with Japanese whaling, it is in violation of an international agreement. No, it’s not a violation. Japan has a permit from the International Whaling Commission to catch and kill a certain number of whales for [research whaling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_Japan#Research_whaling). The article linked by the OP calls it a “loophole”, others argue that it’s the best way to assess how healthy the whale population is. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/10 "2016-03-24T23:35:01Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Also, word “meat” in English usually excludes seafood too. That usage is getting less common over time, and it’s fairly uncommon now. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/11 "2016-03-24T23:38:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > :dubious: [Collins Dictionary](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/meat) has 1st definition of “meat” as “the flesh of mammals used as food, as distinguished from that of birds and fish.” Webster’s defines meat as: > [@](#): > > 1 > a : food; especially : solid food as distinguished from drink > b : the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (as a husk or shell) > 2 > : animal tissue considered especially as food: > a : flesh 2b; also : flesh of a mammal as opposed to fowl or fish > b : flesh 1a; specifically : flesh of domesticated animals Definition 1 is broad enough to include vegetables. Definition 2 specifically refers to mammals and not seafood. > [@](#): > > Americans would accept slicing pieces of meat off a living cow? As willingly as the Japanese would accept slicing pieces of meat off a whale or dolphin. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/12 "2016-03-24T23:42:42Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > That usage is getting less common over time, and it’s fairly uncommon now. So if you said “I want to eat meat tonight!” and your spouse cooked a nice piece of trout, you’d say “exactly what I wanted!”? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/13 "2016-03-25T01:08:48Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > So if you said “I want to eat meat tonight!” and your spouse cooked a nice piece of trout, you’d say “exactly what I wanted!”? I doubt most people would say that, simply because it would be such a large scope. But yes, that would be fine. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/14 "2016-03-25T01:41:05Z")
I don’t think American society as a whole at least can even pretend to have any sort of moral high ground on something like this. Ever look at some of those undercover videos taken inside slaughter houses and the like? I guess you could argue that chickens might not suffer the same as whales, but I think pigs and cows and other animals are smart enough to know they are suffering and some of that footage is just awful. Things like the animals with open sores and infections, cooped up in small pens literally tearing their flesh off. I say this as someone that’s eats all those animals, when you get down to it anything you kill is going to suffer, I’m not willing to give up meat, but I do wish we could minimize the suffering of the animals all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/15 "2016-03-25T02:44:41Z")
I don’t know so much about it being related to Buddhism, but the Japanese really started eating whale as part of their diet after World War II. To counteract the food shortages, the occupation government bought some whaling ships, and used whale meat in school lunches. Japan’s not starving anymore, and hardly anybody actually eats whale nowadays, but I think a lot of why Japan hunted whales for so long was pretty much just nostalgia. I don’t really see the big deal. Obviously, Japan should stick by the agreements they make, but, as was mentioned, the Minke whale isn’t exactly rare, and the whale hunts don’t really hurt anything. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/16 "2016-03-25T02:56:00Z")
The International Whaling Commission started out as an organization dedicated to conserving whales for the purpose of whaling. Over the years it’s become an organization that is opposed to whaling, period. It doesn’t matter whether or not whaling is sustainable because many of these nations will say “no whaling” regardless of how healthy the whale population is. I don’t really blame Japan for using the research loophole. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/17 "2016-03-25T03:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t really blame Japan for using the research loophole. I do. They should be honest. Are they killing whales to eat or for research? I really don’t see any need to kill whales for research nowadays. Most researchers of wild animals don’t kill their subjects, they watch them and sometimes stick cameras on them. As to whether killing whales for food makes economical sense, I suspect it does not. Pigs and ducks (traditional Asian fare) are far more economical to raise and eat. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/18 "2016-03-25T03:22:45Z")
I don’t know so much about it being related to Buddhism, but the Japanese really started eating whale as part of their diet after World War II. To counteract the food shortages, the occupation government bought some whaling ships, and used whale meat in school lunches. Japan’s not starving anymore, and hardly anybody actually eats whale nowadays, but I think a lot of why Japan hunted whales for so long was pretty much just nostalgia. I don’t really see the big deal. Obviously, Japan should stick by the agreements they make, but, as was mentioned, the Minke whale isn’t exactly rare, and the whale hunts don’t really hurt anything. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/19 "2016-03-25T03:35:37Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > I do. They should be honest. Are they killing whales to eat or for research? They have permission to hunt and kill whales for research. And that’s what they’re doing. Where is the dishonesty? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051/20 "2016-03-25T05:02:46Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > They have permission to hunt and kill whales for research. And that’s what they’re doing. Where is the dishonesty? Said permission is self-granted. It has been argued that little useful research is actually done these days. The [International Whaling Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commission) that is supposed to regulate these actions in fact has repeatedly cited Japan for not proving they are doing anything particularly useful and has asked them to stop until they can prove it: \*The IWC has created rules, in a non-binding resolution, relating to the conduct of scientific research whaling. The resolution asks any IWC member that conducts a research whaling program to demonstrate that the research will provide critical research needs, that the research is needed for management purposes, and that non-lethal research techniques cannot provide the same information. The IWC has issued at least 19 resolutions since 1987, the year Japan began scientific research whaling, condemning Japan for failing to meet these conditions and asking it to stop issuing permits. \* From [here](http://law.lclark.edu/clinics/international_environmental_law_project/our_work/whaling/). But Japan by and large just ignores the IWC, which they can freely do since it is strictly a voluntary association. It is very, very obviously not a research program they are pursuing. What research _requires_ killing 500+ whales a year for nearly 30 years with no end in sight? If you just want whales for food, just man up and say “we want whales for food - fuck you hypocritical beef eaters.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-whaling/750051.md?page=2)