# Japanese words in English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 8, 2000, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562 "2000-08-08T14:11:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/1 "2000-08-08T14:11:00Z")
I’ve been living in Japan for nearly five years and I’m afraid I can longer distinguish between Japanese words which are understood in English and words which are incomprehensible to or not used by speakers of (American) English. I understand that Japanese words referring to common Japanese cultural or culinary items such as _kimono_ or _sushi_ are known by most English speakers, but how about the following: _salaryman_ - a salaried worker, a businessman _anime_ - an animated cartoon _indies_ - independent musical artists _road show_ - referring to a movie currently playing at the cinema I’m sure I’ll think of more later, but this should be enough to get started. Do people understand or, more importantly, use these words in the ways described above? I also have a question about the pronunciation of _karaoke_. Many Americans pronounce this like “carry-okie,” but most Japanese wouldn’t understand what they mean. In Japanese it sounds more like it rhymes with “mama-okay,” though without stress on any syllable. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/2 "2000-08-08T14:22:41Z")
I always believe that **indie** was a contraction of “independent”, and nothing more than that. Merriam-Webster goes with this etymology and dates it as 1928. **Roadshow** is used in the UK for any travelling performance with an audience – cinema, live TV filming outdoors, live radio broadcasts outdoors and the like. I’ve seen **anime** used almost interchangeably with “manga” here, and they both seem to get used to describe any cartoon show or film vaguely resembling “Akira” (I know they mean different things – is one the animated version and one the printed version?). Although “salary” is a common word, I’ve not heard anyone use **salaryman**. According to Merriam-Webster, it’s a Japanese version of the English words “salary” and “man” (they date it to 1962 and define it as “Japanese white-collar businessman”). I don’t know how likely it is that the Japanese version of an English term would be re-used in English. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/3 "2000-08-08T14:24:24Z")
“Anime” is known by alot of people, but moreso kids and Generation X’ers than their parents. Anime is used to distinguish the Japanese style of cartoons from American-style cartoons. We don’t use “indies” or “salaryman,” although most people could probably figure out what salaryman means. If you said “indies” to an average American, he would probably think that you’re talking about (1)Native Americans, or (2)the car racing league. Here, a “road show” is when a band, or an arts & crafts fair, or some other group tours the country and stops at all of the major cities for a few days. A movie playing at the cinema is, well, a movie. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/4 "2000-08-08T14:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mattk \* > \*\*I always believe that **indie** was a contraction of “independent”, and nothing more than that. Merriam-Webster goes with this etymology and dates it as 1928. \*\*Most CD stores in Japan have an _indies_ section. Has anyone seen such a section in a U.S. (or other English-speaking country’s) CD store? > [@](#): > > **Roadshow** is used in the UK for any travelling performance with an audience – cinema, live TV filming outdoors, live radio broadcasts outdoors and the like. \*\* How can a film be considered a “travelling performance” and is the term _roadshow_ ever used in this way in the UK? > [@](#): > > I’ve seen **anime** used almost interchangeably with “manga” here, and they both seem to get used to describe any cartoon show or film vaguely resembling “Akira” (I know they mean different things – is one the animated version and one the printed version?).\*\* _Anime_ is the animated version of _manga_. > [@](#): > > Although “salary” is a common word, I’ve not heard anyone use **salaryman**. According to Merriam-Webster, it’s a Japanese version of the English words “salary” and “man” (they date it to 1962 and define it as “Japanese white-collar businessman”). I don’t know how likely it is that the Japanese version of an English term would be re-used in English. \*\* That is precisely my question. Are these forms, which are borrowed from English into Japanese, ever re-borrowed into English? ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/5 "2000-08-08T14:53:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Most CD stores in Japan have an indies section. Has anyone seen such a section in a U.S. (or other English-speaking country’s) CD store? Yes. In the UK the large chains often have an “Indie / Alternative” section. > [@](#): > > How can a film be considered a “travelling performance” and is the term roadshow ever used in this way in the UK? There are a few travelling cinemas based on articulated lorries, particularly in isolated Scottish communities. It’s more commonly used to mean radio broadcasts, though. Incidentally, one of the big cinema chains in Australia is called **Roadshow** , but I don’t know the history of it. > [@](#): > > Are these forms, which are borrowed from English into Japanese, ever re-borrowed into English? I’m sorry, I don’t really know. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/6 "2000-08-08T15:10:01Z")
> [@](#): > > If you said “indies” to an average American, he would probably think that you’re talking about (1)Native Americans, or (2)the car racing league. I’ll have to disagree with you here. If you said “indie” to anyone I know, the first thing to come to mind would be “independent film”. Indie music would be next. But my friends, being cynics, would suggest that “indie” music is a plot by the Large Corporate Music Companies to lure unsuspecting youth into buying more product. I have _one_ acquaintance who would confuse “indie” with “Indy”. But he’s a flake. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/7 "2000-08-08T15:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mattk \* > **There are a few travelling cinemas based on articulated lorries, particularly in isolated Scottish communities. It’s more commonly used to mean radio broadcasts, though. Incidentally, one of the big cinema chains in Australia is called Roadshow, but I don’t know the history of it.** Thanks mattk. That clears up one thing at least. I can’t speak for the Australian example, though. Now, how about the pronunciation of _karaoke_? ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/8 "2000-08-08T15:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Teach \* > \*\*I’ve been living in Japan for nearly five years and I’m afraid I can longer distinguish between Japanese words which are understood in English and words which are incomprehensible to or not used by speakers of (American) English. \*\* Yeah, you’re referring to “wasei eigo” (made in Japan English). For example, the other day I was talking to a Japanese guy and he used the phrase “getto suru” which meant “to get.” English isn’t used in Japanese like it is in English. English words are used as decoration, by sprinkling foreign words in the midst of kanji, it reinforces the uniqueness of the Japanese language itself. The Japanese do not assimilate English words, they use foreign words in a foreign script to show that the Japanese language is impenetrable. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/9 "2000-08-08T16:28:14Z")
Chas.E: Yes, I know the term “wasei eigo” and I avoided using it in the OP because I assumed most people wouldn’t be familiar with it. Am I wrong? You say that English isn’t used in Japanese like it is in English. I wouldn’t expect it to be. Are French, German, Arabic, Latin, etc. used in English as they are/were in the original languages? Sometimes, yes (doesn’t C’est la vie mean the same thing in French?) and sometimes, no (does the English meaning of spiel mean the same as the German?) I would disagree, however, on your point that English words are a mere “decoration” in Japanese. Often they are, but often they are used to express modernity or concepts that are not easily translated into English. To take an example from English borrowing, how would we say Zeitgeist without borrowing from the German? Okay, I admit it’s a pretentious example. How about an example more pertinent to the current discussion: sushi? Is it really better to say “raw fish on top of vinegar-flavored rice”? Many borrowings from English into Japanese fall into the this category. It’s a part of natural language development when different linguistic groups come together and must express borrowed ideas. Sure, there is some pretentiousness in many of the borrowings either way, but for the most part they serve to fill gaps. As for your point concerning the practice of writing borrowed words in a different script in Japanese, I must admit that I feel a touch of discrimination when, for example, my name is written in katakana (the script for borrowed/foreign words) rather than kanji (the pictographic script based on the Chinese (!) writing system). To say that by doing so the Japanese are trying to “show that the Japanese language is impenetrable,” however, is a bit of a stretch. I think that, on the contrary, they are showing their inability to penetrate the foreign languages they so desperately wish to exploit. Besides, it’s much easier to read foreign words in katakana than to read them in kanji characters, which have individual meanings that must be ignored when writing foreign words, as in Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/10 "2000-08-08T16:36:58Z")
Oops. I seem to have allowed myself to by hijacked in my own thread. Any other responses to the question whether Japanese phrases, once borrowed from English, are back-borrowed into English? And no comment on the pronunciation of karaoke? ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/11 "2000-08-08T16:58:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Teach \* > \*\*As for your point concerning the practice of writing borrowed words in a different script in Japanese, I must admit that I feel a touch of discrimination when, for example, my name is written in katakana (the script for borrowed/foreign words) rather than kanji (the pictographic script based on the Chinese (!) writing system). To say that by doing so the Japanese are trying to “show that the Japanese language is impenetrable,” however, is a bit of a stretch. I think that, on the contrary, they are showing their inability to penetrate the foreign languages they so desperately wish to exploit. Besides, it’s much easier to read foreign words in katakana than to read them in kanji characters, which have individual meanings that must be ignored when writing foreign words, as in Chinese. \*\* You’re leaving off mention of hiragana, which is another of the four classes of glyphs used in Japan (kanji, katakana, hiragana, and Roman). It is completely parallel to katakana, but it is used for Japanese words that don’t easily lend themselves to kanji. Katakana is used to represent the exact same sounds (they’re syllable-based), but is used exclusively for non-Japanese words. So Chase E. wasn’t wrong when he said that they use foreign words in a foreign script. I’m not Japanese-literate, but my job has recently forced me to be aware of the writing methods in the East. So I won’t try to comment on why they separate foreign words, rather than having just one phonetic script with the pictographic one. Oh, and sorry for continuing your hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/12 "2000-08-08T17:04:39Z")
I actually have a comment on the OP, as well. Salaryman is in fairly common use in cyberpunk fiction. Of course, most of those stories take place in a future in which Japanese corporate culture has spread world-wide. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/13 "2000-08-08T17:09:02Z")
Well, _I_ pronounce ‘karaoke’ correctly, but I speak the lingo…nobody knows what the hell I mean, tho. And remember the name of that movie starring Ralph Macchio and Noriyuki (Pat) Morita a few years ago? I tell ya…nobody wants to know how to pronounce things. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/14 "2000-08-08T17:34:09Z")
**Saltire:** I didn’t mean to suggest that Chase E. was wrong when he said that the Japanese write foreign words in a special script that is generally reserved for non-Japanese words. (By the way, that script, katakana, is also used for Japanese onomatopoeic expressions or for emphasis.) I also left out hiragana because it wasn’t pertinent to the current discussion. Hiragana is usually used for grammatical inflections, such as those that indicate verb tense, or for complicated words that most people wouldn’t recognize in kanji. But I’m getting off track again… Is _salaryman_ really relegated to cyberpunk fiction? I usually tell my students that they can use the word as is and most people will understand. Have I really been making a huge mistake all these years? As for _karaoke_, I appreciate your adherence to the “correct” pronunciation, ricepad. However, I really want to know what most people really say. I know it sounds pretentious to pronounce _karate_ in the Japanese way, but I just can’t understand how “carry-okie” carries the day. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/15 "2000-08-08T17:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Teach \* > \*\*…I just can’t understand how “carry-okie” carries the day. \*\* Frankly, I don’t understand why most Americans can’t pronounce Japanese words correctly. I’m not sure if it’s laziness or ignorance or what. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/16 "2000-08-08T17:56:41Z")
I speak a very little Japanese, and also get annoyed at American mispronounciations of common Japanese words. I guess I shouldn’t, though. It’s not the most commonly spoken foreign language in America. However, here are a few annoyances: “Saki” for “sake” (correct pronounciation: “sa-keh”) “Shashimi” for “sashimi” “Futahn” for “futon” (correct pronounciation: “foo-tone”) “Nye-kahn” for “Nikon” (c.p.: “Nee-kone”) “I-zoo-soo” for “Isuzu” (this is just plain dyslexia) ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/17 "2000-08-08T17:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ricepad \* > \*\*Frankly, I don’t understand why most Americans can’t pronounce Japanese words correctly. I’m not sure if it’s laziness or ignorance or what. \*\* Probably for the same reason that 'R’s and 'L’s are one the last things that Japanese speakers using English learn, and the same reason that English speakers learning French sound so atrocious until they figure out how to roll their 'R’s correctly. The sounds in a significantly different language usually have little or no parallel in the mother tongue of the person learning the language, and the student has to train her ear to perceive those sounds, and her tongue to reproduce them correctly. From what I was told, karaoke is pronounced something like “kahdah-O-kay”. The ‘D’ is minimised, but it’s generally the most equivalent sound in English to what the Japanese perceive to be an ‘R’ sound when they’re writing in Romanji. ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/18 "2000-08-08T18:31:29Z")
\*\*ricepad: \*\*It’s neither laziness nor ignorance. It’s merely linguistic convenience. Certain sound combinations in Japanese just don’t work according to English phonology. Besides, as I’ve said before, uttering those words according to their original Japanese pronunciations comes off as pretentious as hell. Imagine a person who spoke every French word with a perfect French accent. (Bon appetit. I hope you enjoy your coq au vin. The Clos de Vougeot is the perfect accompaniment, don’t you think?) What I wanted to know was how most people pronounce _karaoke_ and I think I got my answer. Carry-okie anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Teach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/47e85d/32.png) [@Teach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/19 "2000-08-08T18:51:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pugluvr \* > \*\*“Shashimi” for “sashimi” > \*\* Now that one really baffles me. English speakers can say “sa,” right? How about _sashay_? Okay, maybe I pronounce that differently from most people. How about the first syllable of _sonic_? It’s not “shonic,” is it? And how would you pronounce my fiancee’s name, Yasuyo? My friends and family try really hard, but the closest they can come is “Yashuyo.” What’s up with that? Any other “mispronunciations” of Japanese words out there? ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2000, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562/20 "2000-08-08T18:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Teach \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pugluvr \* > > \*\*“Shashimi” for “sashimi” > > \*\* > > Now that one really baffles me. English speakers can say “sa,” right? How about _sashay_? Okay, maybe I pronounce that differently from most people. How about the first syllable of _sonic_? It’s not “shonic,” is it? > > And how would you pronounce my fiancee’s name, Yasuyo? My friends and family try really hard, but the closest they can come is “Yashuyo.” What’s up with that? > > Any other “mispronunciations” of Japanese words out there? > \*\* So is it laziness or ignorance? Certainly not “linguistic convenience”… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/japanese-words-in-english/28562.md?page=2)