ricepad: I admitted that “shashimi” baffled me, but I’m sure there must be some complex phonological process going on there. It can’t be put down to mere laziness. The laziness is on my part; I can’t stay up any longer to work on phonology.
A little whispering voice in the dark recesses of my memory tells me that there is a type of dance (ballroom dance?) that is pronounced carryokie. I couldn’t find anything on the net to back this up though. I can see mixing up the pronunciation of an obscure ballroom dance and singing along to an empty orchestra, as they are both things that I wouldn’t be caught dead doing.
[Note to self: never mispronounce karaoke again] To be honest, I could never figure out why it was pronounced “carry-okie” but I figured I was just too dumb to know. To my uneducated mind, it seems like some Japanese words aren’t pronounced the way they’re spelled. In high school, we had a foreign exchange student named Yasuko. Some people pronounced her name the way it looks, “yah-soo-koh,” but others pronounced it “yes-koh.” I didn’t have many classes with her so I didn’t get to know her very well at all, but somewhere along the line I got the impression that “yes-koh” was the correct pronunciation.
One of my favorite stores is an Asian market in Portland called Uwajimaya. I can’t figure out how to say the name, though, and end up pronouncing it horribly wrong, I’m sure: wee-jee-mi-yah. Can you clue me in on how to say it correctly?
As to the OP, all I can offer is that I know what anima and manga are (animation and comic books respectively), but I don’t know how to say either without worrying that I’m wrong. A friend told me it’s “an-i-may” and “monga.” Does that look right? “Indie” I would have assumed meant independent film (we watch a lot of the Independent Film Channel, especially subtitled Asian films and anime). “Roadshow” makes me think of the Antiques Roadshow on BBC and PBS, so I would have assumed it just meant a traveling show.
But the OP is asking about words that started out English, were co-opted by the Japanese, and returned to English? The only other I can recall of the top of my head didn’t start out in English but French, and wasn’t co-opted by the Japanese but by the Vietnamese, and then was picked up by American GI’s (unless my “The 'Nam” comic books lied to me): boo-koo, from “beau coup.” As in, “That cost him boo-koo bucks.” Do they say that in Japan?
Finally, it tickles me that on “Iron Chef,” Chairman Kaga actually says “Iron Chef” in English. Does it count that my husband and I now say “Iron Chef” in an imitative accent? Has the phrase “Iron Chef” now gone from English to Japanese to English?
I think you’ve hit on the main reason that karaoke started out on the wrong foot in the U.S. and has never recovered its correct pronunciation. The dance you’re trying to remember is carioca, which was named after the inhabitants of Rio de Janiero. It was popular here many years before karaoke arrived, and people confused the sounds (never really thinking that Portuguese and Japanese are in no way related :)). It was one of those mistakes that snowballed until no amount of polite correction will change the way people say the word.
I’ve often seen “salaryman” used to describe Japanese workers, and maybe a few rare times also to describe U.S. workers. But I don’t think the word will ever catch on the the U.S., because there are many more women in U.S. business than in Japan, so “white collar worker” is a more inclusive term.
The Japanese word that I think people in the U.S. use the most, without knowing its origin, is honcho, most commonly in “head honcho”.
Thank you Saltire, I always suspected that that had something to do with it but never could remember enough to figure it out.
On a side note, Japanese and Portuguese are more closely related than you might think. A lot of early trade between Japan and Europe was done by the Portuguese. Japanese has borrowed a few words from the Portuguese language. One common word is tempura. This has nothing to do with anything else in this thread.
I’ve also seen salaryman in magazines, but virtually always to refer to Japanese workers. If someone used the term, I’d understand it. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone actually say it.
Also tycoon.
A few years ago, I believe someone compiled and published a list of some 2000 words English has borrowed from Japanese. I have not seen the book (if it was a book, anyone know?), but I expect most of the words to be fairly rare. Your average person is probably familiar with two or three hundred words borrowed from Japanese.
Native (American) English speaker here, and I must say that I’m absolutely surprised that any of the first three words in the OP are not immediately recognised. “Roadshow” for movie or cinema is just weird though.
I must qualify by saying that I read science fiction, and am a fan of anime.
Salaryman shows up in business news and, to a certain extent, in “lifestyle” or psychological or sociological articles in papers and periodicals. In every case I have seen it, it was used to identify only Japanese salarymen in a discussion of their lifestyles or work ethic.
In other words, it has not come back as a general term in American English, but the Japanese borrowing has been cited in regards to discussions of Japan.
Anime is most often used to simply identify the Japanese style of animated movie production and comes closest to the usage you asked about.
Indies is a pure borrowing that has never left the U.S., so has no reason to “return.”
Road show has the slightly different meaning mentioned in earlier posts that has never left the U.S., so has not yet returned with a new or modified meaning.
I suspect that you are looking for words that have followed the journey of redingote. The original word was simply the English phrase “riding coat.” At some point, (before L’Académie Française could interfere), the French borrowed the words. A specific style of riding coat developed that made the journey back across the Channel, bearing the French term (and pronunciation) redingote, so now we have speakers of English dressing up in their redingote when they select a riding coat.
I am not aware of any English/American words that have truly made the round trip. (I always figured anime was from French.)
my personal favourite: bushuru
i might have gotten the spelling wrong. this word was coined in japan after the “unfortunate” act that prez. bush inflicted on the japanese prime minister at dinner one evening. i remember reading that it was very popular among young people.
The -oke of karaoke comes from orchestra. It has nothing to do (etymologically) with the Brazilian dance. Not counting a trademark or two, it’s the only one I know for sure.
IIRC, anime was a Japanese adaption or imitation of some American cartoons (not sure which ones). That would indicate that it’s probably a borrowing from English.
I think “laziness or ignorance” is kind of harsh. Very few languages (if any) bother to prononce loan words correctly. After all, “Thank you.” isn’t “sankyu” in the US, either. And I won’t even bring up “unbelivable.”
I think Anime qualifies as a “back and forth” loanword. Though it’s still not clear exactly what the english version means, depending on weither you ask a anime fan, a “animation” fan, or the parent of a Pokemon fan.
I vaugely remeber reading that though anime is an english loan word, manga is a french one. Though manga is really only used by anime fans and a couple of comic fans.
“Mecha” might work too, (assuming it’s english) but only among anime or videogame fans. Course, the two toghether is a pretty big group nowadays.
A few years ago, back during the Street Fighter craze, “kiyaku” almost replaced kick in arcade culture though. 
Salariman is proably a “valid” english word, (I’ve seen it in papers, and my father used it once or twice, though only refering to japanese businessmen) but I’m not sure it qualifies. Salary Man isn’t an english idiom. If we count that, we kinda have to count “pokemon” too. And I’m sure nobody wants that.
If one was REALLY desperate, one could argue that basic definition of “RPG” (from something that geeky people do with dice and rulebooks, to something that geeky people do with a Playstation) has changed enough through Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior that that could count as a loanword.
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“In the 70’s, you could take an abstract concept like shining your love, and just run with it.”
Well pugluvr - I don’t expect Americans to be able to pronounce anything in Japanese that is “commonly” used in English (i.e. sake, sashimi, etc…) come on, give em a break. Most of the time, when someone is introduced to something like “shashimi”, it’s for the first time and the person who’s introducing it to them is probably NOT, I repeat, NOT a Japanese speaker.
If there were native Japanese speakers at every sushi joint, car dealership, camera shop, then I’d expect the correct pronounciation (there would be no excuse)…however, I’m just greatful when a friend dosn’t gag uncontrollably when I go for the sea urchin :0
Well… in Japan, the bulk of women workers are called “OL” (office ladies) [oh-eru]. And that would NEVER pass in the US. By definition it’s way too sexist.
One interesting word in Japanese is “onanii,” which means “masturbation.” I believe its roots are in French or Swedish, where onanie means the same thing. I may be wrong; someone correct me.
I thought OL was more of a job description . . . sort of a long-term version of a temp.
I don’t know about “onanii,” but that dosen’t mean anything. Though it does have But there are lots of sex charged loan phrases in Japanese, most English, but a fair number from German. Including, if my copy of Perfect Blue is to be belived, “Rape Scene.”
Guess it takes the sting out of them. Menage a Trois sounds like something that sophisticated but decadant people might engage in, in between arguing about Brhams at a nice resteraunt and mking important investment decisions. “Three-way” sounds like something you did in highschool, while drunk, and your girlfrend and her sister never forgave you for.
Actually, “Love Hotel” might qualify as a both ways loanword, now that my minds on the subject.
Not that that takes very much, to get my mind on the subject, of course.
Warning. Don’t let the name fool you. Not a native Japanese speaker. Not even a non-native speaker. I’m gawdawful with languages. Spanish didn’t take, German didn’t take, Japanese (Which I put much more effort into) didn’t take either. Picked up a surprisingly comprehensive slang and insult vocab in both, though. The German’s been degrading since high school, but the Japanese keeps getting bigger.
What that says about me, I’m not sure. But it’s proably not complementary.
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“We can’t do anything without a sword in our hands. That’s why they call us kenshi.”
As another long term gaijin (9 years) I have the same problems, Teach.
I’ve heard lots of new arrivals pronounce Karaoke as “care-oki”.
Oo-wah-jee-mah-yah would be the correct pronunciation.
“Onanii”, IIRC, is actually a Biblical reference from the curse of Onan, and probably enered Japanese from English.
My favorite mispronunciation of Japanese was from several years ago after the Kobe earthquake - no one who called from the states could get it right - everyone was talking obout Kobi (koh-bee as opposed to the correct koh-beh).
Also, Hiroshima often gets a strange accent and clip at the end - hi-RO-shi-ma, with short "I"s instead of proper long "E"s (ie Hee-ro-shee-ma). And Cannon useually (and understandably with it’s spelling) get mispronounced slightly - a short “A” instead of “ah” as in father.
As you might have noticed in my earlier post, I know what karaoke means. I still think that the word carioca is the reason why karaoke is often mispronounced in the US, even though they have no common etymology.
According to my dictionary it just means a female office worker. It seems to me that the term is only used for young female office workers, usually fresh out of the college, who would probably only stay for a few years before they get married and quit the job. It’s a sexist term and it’s creepy to hear female students say they want to become an OL.
As for mispronounced Japanese words, the “hya” sound doesn’t exist in English at all and I’ve heard all sorts of mispronunciations. Especially when Comet Hyakutake was bright in the sky. (Correct pronounciation of “hya” is a bit like saying “hee-ah” very fast)
One Japanese word that’s used more in America than in Japan: kamikaze. I’ve seen it used in the US (and have used it myself) to mean any all-out, last-ditch effort done with little regard for dignity or personal safety. I’ve never heard it used in Japan to refer to anything but the pilots who flew suicide missions in WWII.
Oh yeah, and the correct pronunciation for it is kah-mee-kah-zay.
Teach: I had the same problem as you with my family’s pronunciation of my fiancee’s name: Ikue. They just wouldn’t pronounce the final ‘e’.
–sublight.
Fun with Janglish: For my family service, we went to a bargain and got a print club. Later, with some friends, I went to a no-pan kissa.
Who was that politician who got in the scandel about the “no-pan shabu-shabu” place? I remember one of the Mainichi News reporters commenting about having to explain that one to American collegues - “what’s shabu-shabu, and why don’t they use pans?”
(for those not in the know “no-pans” referes to a “resturaunt” or “coffee shop” where the waitersses wear no underwear)