# Jared Diamond responds to Romney's misrepresentation of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473 "2012-08-05T01:18:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/41 "2012-08-06T15:25:00Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > On the other hand, all’s well that ends well. ‘In the end’? Nothing ends, **LinusK**. Nothing ever ends. Especially in the Middle East, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/42 "2012-08-06T16:35:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no one codification of “Sharia Law”. I don’t endorse it, but I don’t think it’s useful to use it as a scare term and pretend that Islamic societies are inherently incapable of change. I never said that–only that they are inherently conservative and that such conservatism has caused them to slowly migrate from the center stage of world history to the marginal position they occupy now. And states with Sharia law are more to be pitied than feared. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/43 "2012-08-06T16:47:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… I said, “aside from a few Gulf Emirates and Saudi Arabia.” > > There are over 20 Arab nations. The only ones that I can think of off the top of my head that classifies itself as “an Islamic Republic” is Sudan. Saudi Arabia is an Islamic regime, but not an Islamic Republic, however for the purposes of not being pedantic, I’ll throw that one your way. > > So what other ones were you thinking of. Be specific and name the Arab nations which call themselves Islamic Republics which aren’t any of the Gulf Emirates(which are lots of things but not poor). > > Certainly none of the Arab nations Israel has clashed with are Islamic Republics. Maybe, maybe not…but I wasn’t confining my remarks to those nations that are enemies of Israel. In any event, I’m not that concerned about the label, in that no _actual_ “Islamic republic” has ever existed–only theocracies that profess Islam as their guiding light. In fact, “Islamic republic” (or “Christian republic,” for that matter, is an oxymoron; you can’t have the freedom “republic” implies and the oppression “Islamic” or “Christian” imply coexisting. I was mostly referring to general societal backwardness in the Arab/Muslim world; the Emirates are certainly filthy rich but that doesn’t mean their society is advanced. And, of course, Saudi Arabia, though immensely wealthy, is still stuck in the twelfth century. A good example of a nation that used to be secular and advanced is Turkey. Thanks to democratically electing an Islamic government, they will never have another election, at least not until the next revolution. But up until then, Turkey showed the world the difference between an Islamic _government_ (which they did not have) and an Islamic _society_ (which they did). Almost all Islamic societies meld their religion and their government together; the exact opposite of the Western separation of church and state. This creates conservatism and stagnation, and Turkey’s rapid modernization under Ataturk and his successors shows that when Islam is separated from the actual running of the country, great things can occur. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/44 "2012-08-06T16:56:34Z")
So the it should be easy for you to list the “Islamic Republics” in the Arab World. Please, for the third time, do so. Beyond that claiming that Turkey will never have another election and that it is no longer “advanced” is silly. Finally, I’m not sure why you’re referring to the “Western Seperation of Church and State” because most western countries don’t practice it. France and the US are the exceptions not the rule. Most western nations, such as the UK, Canada, Israel, Ireland, and Japan, like most Arab countries mix religion and government. Finally, you’re wrong in saying that a Republic is free. There have been lots of unfree Republics, I.E. all the Warsaw Pact Republics, North Korea, Cuba, and the PRC. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/45 "2012-08-06T17:45:42Z")
Wow. Contrary to the belief of many in this thread, Palestinian history did not start in 1967. In 1948 the Palestinians were not the ones invading the new state of Israel with major military forces. From 1948 to 1967 Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and Jordan controlled the West Bank, and things were not any better for them. Whatever you feel about their culture, the Palestinians have not been in control of their destiny for a long time. Saying their troubles are 100% culture is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/46 "2012-08-06T18:03:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In 1948 the Palestinians were not the ones invading the new state of Israel with major military forces. To be fair, they were invading with “irregulars” before the main invasion. But that’s neither here nor there and I just wanted to clarify that fact. Back to the nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/47 "2012-08-06T18:31:22Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > I never said that–only that they are inherently conservative and that such conservatism has caused them to slowly migrate from the center stage of world history to the marginal position they occupy now. > > And states with Sharia law are more to be pitied than feared. You think Israel is to be “pitied”? I assume you’re aware it implements Sharia. Please explain why Israel should be pitied. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/48 "2012-08-06T18:35:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure why you’re referring to the “Western Seperation of Church and State” because most western countries don’t practice it. France and the US are the exceptions not the rule. Most western nations, such as the UK, Canada, Israel, Ireland, and Japan, like most Arab countries mix religion and government. Comparing the mix of religion and government in Canada - such as it is, which is pretty limited - to places like Saudi Arabia is just insane. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/49 "2012-08-06T18:55:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Comparing the mix of religion and government in Canada - such as it is, which is pretty limited - to places like Saudi Arabia is just insane. You’re correct, which is why I didn’t. I compared the mixture of religion and government in most western countries to most Arab countries. Saudi Arabia is not the norm. It along with Sudan are the only of the twenty plus Arab countries that could be classified as being “Islamic regimes” with radically redefining the term. Most of the countries in the Middle East are more like Jordan or Morocco where like the UK and Canada there is a mixture of the government and religion. In all but a handful of cases the mixing of government and religion is that family law, as in Israel, is administered by religious bodies and there are seperate government run schools for Christians and Muslims. Saudi Arabia’s “morality police”, laws prohibiting the buying and selling of alcohol, and requiring women and men to have gender specific dress codes and laws making women legally inferior to men is as foreign to most of the Middle East as it is to Canada. In fact, many observers often went too far, and sometimes still do and regularl referred to countries like Saddam’s Iraq, Syria, and Egypt as “secular” countries. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/50 "2012-08-06T20:48:19Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > A good example of a nation that used to be secular and advanced is Turkey. Thanks to democratically electing an Islamic government, they will never have another election, at least not until the next revolution. Have I missed something in the news lately? Could you please fill us in on this development. I have no idea what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/51 "2012-08-06T22:51:25Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Have I missed something in the news lately? Could you please fill us in on this development. I have no idea what you are talking about. I assume it’s a reference to the AKP, who took the largest chunk of seats in the Turkish Parliament in last year’s elections, although still not quite a majority overall (341 seats or about 46% of the votes). They’re “Islamist” the same way that the Republican Party is trying to install a Christian theocracy in the US. Actually the comparison to the Republicans is pretty apt, just replace every Christian reference with a Muslim one and you’re fairly close to their platform, love of the free market and all, though the real hardliner “Turkey uber alles” types favor the MHP instead. They’re also rather “pro-Western” and firmly committed to the EU. They’re no more likely to end elections in Turkey than a Romney win would remove them in the US. The second largest voting block is the CHP who are staunchly populist and areligious. **greenslime** has no clue about Turkish politics. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/52 "2012-08-06T23:00:01Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > I assume it’s a reference to the AKP, who took the largest chunk of seats in the Turkish Parliament in last year’s elections, although still not quite a majority overall (341 seats or about 46% of the votes). They’re “Islamist” the same way that the Republican Party is trying to install a Christian theocracy in the US. Actually the comparison to the Republicans is pretty apt, just replace every Christian reference with a Muslim one and you’re fairly close to their platform, love of the free market and all, though the real hardliner “Turkey uber alles” types favor the MHP instead. They’re also rather “pro-Western” and firmly committed to the EU. They’re no more likely to end elections in Turkey than a Romney win would remove them in the US. > > The second largest voting block is the CHP who are staunchly populist and areligious. **greenslime** has no clue about Turkish politics. Agreed. Moreover, the Kemalists are vastly less supportive of Democracy and far more likely to try and end free elections. It was also disturbing that Greenslime seemed supportive of a military coup in Turkey which is quite odd for such a staunch supporter of modernity and western values. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/53 "2012-08-06T23:32:51Z")
> [@I\_Know\_Nothing](#): > > Have I missed something in the news lately? Could you please fill us in on this development. I have no idea what you are talking about. The reigning government in Turkey is now Islamist–democratically elected. It is extremely doubtful they will allow any further democratic elections to take place, but I could be wrong, and I hope I am. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/54 "2012-08-06T23:36:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. Moreover, the Kemalists are vastly less supportive of Democracy and far more likely to try and end free elections. > > It was also disturbing that Greenslime seemed supportive of a military coup in Turkey which is quite odd for such a staunch supporter of modernity and western values. It’s kind of disturbing that you read what I said as being supportive of a military coup in Turkey, when I said no such thing, nor did I suggest it. Islam and democracy are antithetical. It would be interesting to see a free and fair election in _any_ Islamist-controlled country, and certainly, it could conceivably still happen in Turkey–but it would be astounding to see a secular party put back in power. The “elections” in Turkey from now on are extremely likely to resemble those in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/55 "2012-08-06T23:43:56Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > The “elections” in Turkey from now on are extremely likely to resemble those in Iran. Such a comment makes little sense to anyone familiar with either AKP or Iran. Anyway, I asked you on multiple occasions to list of the 22 Arab countries which ones, other than Sudan and Saudi Arabia are “Islamic Republics”(though Saudi Arabia isn’t a republic). Please, for the fourth time, list them. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/56 "2012-08-06T23:44:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Comparing the mix of religion and government in Canada - such as it is, which is pretty limited - to places like Saudi Arabia is just insane. IW seems to either be speaking in hyperbole, or to truly not understand that in the vast majority of Western democracies, religion has _no_ role in government, whether or not such a role is specifically proscribed by law. Freedom of religion must, as a matter of necessity, be coupled with freedom _from_ religion. That’s why, in the US, we have periodic battles over such ephemera as compelling students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The great contrast between Islam and Christianity in terms of government is that in modern times, only Islam continues to insert itself into the daily lives of its adherents. Christianity used to muscle in on secular authority in the West, but the Enlightenment pretty much ended that. Christianity is now only a belief system, not a belief _and_ governmental system (not that Republicans in the US don’t think it should be both). ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/57 "2012-08-06T23:46:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Such a comment makes little sense to anyone familiar with either AKP or Iran. > > Anyway, I asked you on multiple occasions to list of the 22 Arab countries which ones, other than Sudan and Saudi Arabia are “Islamic Republics”(though Saudi Arabia isn’t a republic). > > Please, for the fourth time, list them. No. (Most people would realize that when a request/demand is ignored three times, it’s unlikely to be fulfilled upon a fourth such demand.) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/58 "2012-08-06T23:57:04Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > IW seems to either be speaking in hyperbole, or to truly not understand that in the vast majority of Western democracies, religion has _no_ role in government, whether or not such a role is specifically proscribed by law. That’s not remotely true. Most western democracies do have a mixing of government and religion in ways that would violate the American concept of Seperation of Church and State. That is true of the UK, Ireland, Israel, Canada, Japan, and the Scandanavian countries. That doesn’t make any of them theocracies. The same is true of Jordan, Syria, Morocco, Iraq and most of the Islamic world where there is some mixture of government and religion without being theocracies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are the exceptions not the rule. Now, for the fifth time, please list which of the 22 Arab countries, other that Saudi Arabia and Sudan are, to use your words, “Islamic Republics”. If you’re going to make a statement you should be willing to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/59 "2012-08-07T00:06:50Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > No. (Most people would realize that when a request/demand is ignored three times, it’s unlikely to be fulfilled upon a fourth such demand.) More people would realize that, often, when someone makes a claim in a debate and refuses to provide proof when challenged multiple times, it’s because their argument was full of shit and they can’t support it and aren’t going to retract it instead. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/60 "2012-08-07T00:07:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, for the fifth time, please list which of the 22 Arab countries, other that Saudi Arabia and Sudan are, to use your words, “Islamic Republics”. > > If you’re going to make a statement you should be willing to back it up. I would do so at the request of most people. However, many of the things you’ve said in this thread and elsewhere suggest that you hold extremely radical views and are willing to selectively consider and fail to consider various facts that, respectively, support and refute your positions. I’m sure you feel the same about me. Debate with you is therefore pointless. I will reiterate for your benefit that I did say that there was no such thing as an actual Islamic republic; therefore, which of those nations actually calls themsleves that is largely irrlevant (as in, for example, the defunct German Democratic Republic aka East Germany). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473.md?page=4)