# Jared Diamond responds to Romney's misrepresentation of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473 "2012-08-05T01:18:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/81 "2012-08-08T04:54:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since you won’t provide any cite for your claim I assume we can infer that you have conceded that your claim was wrong. Nope, IW, I don’t CITE CITE CITE on demand. Neither do you. Have you twigged to the fact that the reason I don’t bother to respond to your constant demands for this, that, and the other is precisely _because_ you incessantly, tiresomely make those demands? If you think that someone asserting a position and not “providing a cite” for it is conceding that said position is incorrect, well, then, I am glad that you are acknowledging that just about every single position \*you’ve \* taken is wrong, since I detect an appalling lack of citations in your posts to back up your assertions. Give it a rest, why don’t you–it’s evident your positions are seen through the lens of your particular politics. Nothing wrong with Israel/US-hating (though it’s a bit cliched); why not acknowledge that that’s where you’re coming from? Most of Israel’s critics drastically distort the recent history of the region in order to make Israel look like the bad guy, when all they are doing is trying to continue to exist–a right the Palestinians refuse to grant them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/82 "2012-08-08T05:04:53Z")
No, Ibn is correct and your claims about Israel betray utter ignorance on the topic. Israel has, and almost certainly will never offer the Palestinians “full Israeli citizenship in a combined state”. They’ve made limited offers, like to the residents of East Jerusalem and such, but the idea that the Israelis themselves support a one state “solution” and offered the Palestinians citizenship is wonky. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/83 "2012-08-08T05:15:50Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Nope, IW, I don’t CITE CITE CITE on demand. Neither do you. Actually, yes, when people ask me to provide evidence to support my claims I do. Please don’t accuse me of things I don’t do. > [@](#): > > Have you twigged to the fact that the reason I don’t bother to respond to your constant demands for this, that, and the other is precisely because you incessantly, tiresomely make those demands? Constant demands? Have we had a disagreement before? If so I honestly don’t remember. I think I asked you about that twice and it was quite reasonable for me to ask you that. You made an odd claim which seemed to display a dramatic lack of knowledge of the the Israel-Palestinain situation. You claimed that Israeli has repeatedly offered “full Israeli citizenship” to the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip “in a combined state” in post #22. Anyone with knowledge of the region knows that such a claim is complete and utter bullshit. Yes, the Israelis have offered citizenship to the Druze in the Golan Heights and to the Palestinians in East Jerusalem, but the Israelis have never and almost certainly will never offer citizenship the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as part of a one state solution. The fact that you refuse to provide evidence for your claim after being asked about it and told by two different people that your claim was bullshit is a pretty strong indicator that you were wrong and that your knowledge and understanding of the region leaves much to be desired. > [@](#): > > Give it a rest, why don’t you–it’s evident your positions are seen through the lens of your particular politics. Nothing wrong with Israel/US-hating (though it’s a bit cliched); why not acknowledge that that’s where you’re coming from? You think I hate Israel and the US? I think several people are going to need smelling salts after reading that claim. > [@](#): > > Most of Israel’s critics drastically distort the recent history of the region in order to make Israel look like the bad guy, when all they are doing is trying to continue to exist–a right the Palestinians refuse to grant them. Considering how you yourself have very dramatically distorted the history of the region this post shows remarkable chutzpah. Moreover, the Palestinians are hardly in position to grant or refuse to grant any rights to the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/84 "2012-08-08T05:30:26Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Thank you for expressing your disagreement with me in such a polite and felicitous manner, especially given the fact that your opinion is so much more valid than mine. You serve as a shining example for other internet message board posters. I doubt it - my bullshit tolerance drops by the day. You however have yet to demonstrate any competency in debating let alone any ability to tell the difference between your opinions and reality. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/85 "2012-08-08T07:13:32Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > I have simply observed the actions of Islamic theocracies when they seize power Taking what you’ve said as a hypothesis, there are two obvious weaknesses to it: 1. Turkey is not an Islamic theocracy. In fact, even with the AKP in power, its government is clearly secular. That has not changed in any significant fashion since 2002. 2. The AKP did not ‘seize’ power. They earned the right to govern by appeallng to the desires of the masses in a democratic country. They continue this behavior to the present day. That’s all there is to it minus the details of how they appeal to the masses. Besides the flaws in the hypothesis itself, there is the evidence. First, evidence supportive of the hypothesis that Turkey has not become an Islamic theocracy despite the electoral success of the AKP: 6 major elections. In those elections the major parties, AKP, CHP, MHP, and BDP have won seats consistent with the demographics of the people who vote for them. AKP gets the moderate to strongly conservative pro-business, pro-religious vote. CHP gets the die-hard liberal/Kemalist vote. MHP gets crazy nationalists and BDP gets Kurds. In other words, the parties get votes tallied from people who would favor them and whose attitudes toward religion in government vary widely. Also, the AKP success has varied as other political movements gain and lose strength. The AKP was earning votes from the Kurdish minority for a time and the AKP has lost some seats in parliament to the increasingly popular MHP. Real Islamic theocracies would not allow any party to run that did not buy the orthodoxy of the theocratic state. In real Islamic theocracies the approved party always wins, and wins big. Second, evidence against a seizure of power by Erdogan and the AKP comes from the vocal attempts by Erdogan to criminalize adultery. He met with vocal opposition and eventually backed down from his position. It has not returned as an issue since 2004. What kind of Islamic theocracy with all of the arms of government seized by members of the theocratic regime would allow opposition to religious laws? > [@greenslime1951](#): > > I certainly do hope I’m wrong about Turkey, and that it proves to be unique in _not_ oppressing and crushing secular opposition to the theocracy. But until we see that happening, I doubt my concerns are “baseless.” The AKP is not crushing anyone, as demonstrated by the failure of the adultery law. Their dominance is due to their appeal, particularly Erdogan’s. He’s a fantastic orator and politician. The AKP will wain after Erdogan ends his tenure as prime minister. I guess your concerns are not baseless. As long as we are all human there is a possibility that any government can become a theocracy. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/86 "2012-08-09T19:15:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the other hand, it is also true that a poster who makes an assertion that he or she refuses to support may be simply ducking the fact that the idea has no support and other posters are free to point out that fact. > > = = = > > Stick to actually discussing the topic on its own merits and omit discussions regarding the debating tactics of others. > > [/Moderating] Holy contradictory instructions, Batman. No, seriously. How are we to continue to point out that **greenslime** has not provided any citations and thus is likely ducking out of debate, yet not discuss his debating style? The former _is_ the latter. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/87 "2012-08-10T00:50:02Z")
No, it is not. Pointing out his persistent errors and citing the facts that run counter to his claims is different than standing around chanting “your logic sucks.” And, as I noted in the linked post, the problem is not in mentioning that another poster employs poor (or non-existent) logic, it is in harping on that fact for post after post. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/88 "2012-08-10T06:49:45Z")
So, someone can just make an assertion without cites, and if they can fend off the calls for cites for a few posts they will just get away with it? We won’t be able to call them out? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/89 "2012-08-10T07:24:21Z")
There’s a whole BBQPit for calling them out - start a thread there and link to it here. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/90 "2012-08-10T11:25:27Z")
All they have to do is ignore the pit thread and poof! no cites necessary again. Back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/91 "2012-08-10T19:21:41Z")
> [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](#): > > All they have to do is ignore the pit thread and poof! no cites necessary again. Back to square one. The requirement that everyone (or, everyone that you disagree with) _ **must** _ provide citations for everything they say exists only in your imagination. I can’t help but notice that you didn’t provide a citation for your assertion that the BBQ pit threads are ignored by those who are the subject of them. Nothing is true unless it’s cited, after all. Not even an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/92 "2012-08-11T01:34:23Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > The requirement that everyone (or, everyone that you disagree with) _ **must** _ provide citations for everything they say exists only in your imagination. Had you not made repeated errors on this thread and repeatedly revealed some fairly dramatic ignorance of the Middle East and the people who live there, such arguments would be more effective. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/93 "2012-08-11T10:33:14Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > The requirement that everyone (or, everyone that you disagree with) _ **must** _ provide citations for everything they say exists only in your imagination. > > I can’t help but notice that you didn’t provide a citation for your assertion that the BBQ pit threads are ignored by those who are the subject of them. Nothing is true unless it’s cited, after all. Not even an opinion. I never said it was a requirement for EVERYTHING. You are the one imagining things here. Read my posts again… this time for comprehension.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/94 "2012-08-12T03:22:11Z")
> [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](#): > > So, someone can just make an assertion without cites, and if they can fend off the calls for cites for a few posts they will just get away with it? We won’t be able to call them out? There are multiple threads on this general topic in ATMB. No one “gets away” with stonewalling on the matter of supporting references. The easiest thing to do is to simply gratuitously deny any gratuitous assertion. One may also provide information, (sources help, of course), that demonstrates that a claim is wrong. For example, **greenslime1951** made the claim that Islam is antithetical to democracy. To support his claim, he later said that he had not seen any theocracies move on to become democracies–without addressing the various Muslim-majority countries that have representative governments. Several posters have provided facts that argue against **greenslime1951** ’s original claim about Islam and democracy. He has failed to provide any evidence that his claim was based on anything other than his personal belief. As long as he insists on repeating a claim without evidence, one need only point to the contradicting evidence and ignore him. One does not need to make a big deal about his posting style; simply pointing to facts is sufficient. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/95 "2012-08-18T02:42:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No, it is not. > > Pointing out his persistent errors and citing the facts that run counter to his claims is different than standing around chanting “your logic sucks.” > > And, as I noted in the linked post, the problem is not in mentioning that another poster employs poor (or non-existent) logic, it is in harping on that fact for post after post. I still do not see the distinction you are making. Telling someone their logic sucks is attacking them as a person, not discussing their debating style. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473/96 "2012-08-18T03:56:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Telling someone their logic sucks is attacking them as a person, not discussing their debating style. I realize that this is a favorite theme of yours, based on your repeated assertions in ATMB, but I reject your claim, here, on two counts: First, I explicitly **rejected** as inappropriate the notion of “_standing around chanting ‘your logic sucks.’_” so appearing to attribute that idea to me seems more than a bit odd. Second, I reject the notion that you seem to advance that pointing out errors in logic is the same action as “_standing around chanting ‘your logic sucks.’_” It is not an attack on a person to point out where they have employed a fallacy or where they have constructed a flawed syllogism. Mentioning that a poster repeatedly uses flawed logic is still not an attack on the person provided that the comment is not delivered in a specifically insulting way: Your logic throughout this discussion has been flawed: _not insulting_ You could not arrive at a correct conclusion if Aristotle, Occam, Whitehead, and Gödel tried to lead you to it: _insulting_ If one persistently harps on the claim that a poster is illogical, that would be considered harrassment, but mentioning the idea in a post or two, particularly in response to the actual flawed logic, is just not a personal attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-diamond-responds-to-romneys-misrepresentation-of-guns-germs-and-steel/630473.md?page=4)