# Jared Loughner’s Politics – What Matters and What Doesn’t? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043 "2011-01-10T00:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/41 "2011-01-10T05:14:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Jared Loughner’s favourite books include _Communist Manifesto_ and _Mein Kampf_ and his rhetoric sounds more Libertarian/anti-government in general. What kind of country are we living in where those books could be called libertarian? Those are _revolutionary_ works venerated by authoritarian, even totalitarian, factions. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/42 "2011-01-10T05:22:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Jared Loughner’s favourite books include _Communist Manifesto_ and _Mein Kampf_ and his rhetoric sounds more Libertarian/anti-government in general. So that people aren’t taking this seriously, Loughner’s favorite books as far as anyone actually knows: > [@](#): > > Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. [http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u](http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u) There is absolutely no libertarian trend and only barely an anti-government trend, if you thoroughly wade through his other crap. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/43 "2011-01-10T05:34:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What kind of country are we living in where those books could be called libertarian? Those are _revolutionary_ works venerated by authoritarian, even totalitarian, factions. No they aren’t. You are correct they are not libertarian, but while _The Communist Manifesto_ is revolutionary, _Mein Kampf_ is reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/44 "2011-01-10T06:47:25Z")
(By **Chief Pedant** ): “He needs executing. I’ll be very disappointed if any liberals come to his aid” > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Why? Joke. J O K E I forgot how seriously the liberal crowd takes killin’ the creeps. I was just making a feeble attempt at pulling some liberal chains. (Although he does actually need to be executed asap, of course) **xenophon41** : Is the idea that liberals like to outlaw “hate speech” really news to you? I’m just curious… ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/45 "2011-01-10T07:26:10Z")
I think it’s far too early to prognosticate on Mr Loughner. I’ll wait until we’ve learned much more. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/46 "2011-01-10T09:16:40Z")
> [@villa](#): > > No they aren’t. You are correct they are not libertarian, but while _The Communist Manifesto_ is revolutionary, _Mein Kampf_ is reactionary. It’s revolutionary in that it wants to radically change society. It wants to radically change society in a different way than The Communist Manifesto wants to radically change society. It’s revolutionary, not reactionary, because it’s trying to build a new and better world, not go back to the way things used to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/47 "2011-01-10T10:59:01Z")
In my life I’ve known two people who developed very serious and profound cases of schizophrenia. When the disease was at its worst, both people were not only completely disassociated from reality, they were completely disassociated from _unreality_ as well. There was nothing stable about their hallucinations, paranoias, or delusions. If (and this is a hypothetical “if”) Loughner has a condition as serious as schizophrenia, I can’t see partisan politics as being the motive behind his actions. Number one, someone who was that profoundly delusional could listen to an entire 30-minute speech actively calling for political assassinations and still process it as a call for peace (and vice versa). Number two, in my experience, someone that disturbed would be unable to hold a serious political belief for any real length of time. If (again, “if”) Loughner is suffering from some kind of major mental illness, then I would interpret his actions as a direct result of delusions caused by the disease, and not his politics, or the rhetoric of the media. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/48 "2011-01-10T12:18:39Z")
So… have we figured out his politics yet? Or can this incident continue to be an uninformed effort to take down one’s political enemies? I’m seeing evidence that he was an anti-semetic, drug using, cult worshiping, mental case… how about we direct our scorn in those directions. lt also appears that she was just as much on the Daily Kos’ target list as Palin’s. Speaking of “enemies” what do you think of politicians who use that word? Does it encourage violence? Does it depend whether you are talking to rich donors or a group more prone to violence ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/49 "2011-01-10T13:50:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > **xenophon41** : Is the idea that liberals like to outlaw “hate speech” really news to you? I’m just curious… You said: “One of the core liberal beliefs is that we’ll all get kinder and gentler if we can just figger out which free speech to outlaw or control…” Now, there are more deliberately dismissive ways to phrase that, I grant you, but you did a good enough job there to warrant a curt response. If you’re going to be yanking liberal chains, you should expect some rebuttals that are less than conscientious in their exploration of your theme. If you mean to say that outlawing types of speech is a peculiarly liberal preoccupation, I’ll bet one can find on these internets plenty of cites from public figures of a decidedly conservative outlook advocating censorship to show that your assertion is false. I’m also betting one can find more than a few examples of individuals and organizations of a decidedly liberal viewpoint defending 1st Amendment rights of hate speechers. So yes, I disagree that suppression of speech is a core liberal principle. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/50 "2011-01-10T13:55:53Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So yes, I disagree that suppression of speech is a core liberal principle. In addition, threads about hate speech regularly go to multiple pages on this forum. So if there is a bloc of liberals out there who heavily lean toward outlawing hate speech, they’re not here. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/51 "2011-01-10T14:10:15Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > So… have we figured out his politics yet? Or can this incident continue to be an uninformed effort to take down one’s political enemies? I think it’s looking very much like Mr. Loughner was not influenced to commit his rampage by any of the violent rhetoric we’ve been talking about. As I said in the OP and have maintained, I don’t believe Loughner’s actual political beliefs needed to be of any particular ideology in order for him to be influenced to violence by the types of images used and fear mongering done by some of these public figures. Other people inevitably will be. Arguably, other people [have](http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jul/26/tvuu-church-shooting-a-year-later/) been. Loughner probably wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/52 "2011-01-10T14:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The rhetoric from the extreme American right over the past couple of decades has become increasingly eliminationist in tone and apocalyptic in content. The core of the complaint then seems to be, _But for this eliminationist and apocalyptic rhetoric, this tragedy would not have occurred._ But I don’t believe that. Chapman shot Lennon. Hinckley shot Reagan. What rhetoric do we blame for those deaths? It seems clear and more in line with Occams’ razor to simply observe that sometimes, crazy people kill. This happens with infrequent but depressing regularity and is not a function of any particular narrative or rhetoric in play at this time. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/53 "2011-01-10T14:28:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The core of the complaint then seems to be, _But for this eliminationist and apocalyptic rhetoric, this tragedy would not have occurred._ > > It seems clear and more in line with Occams’ razor to simply observe that sometimes, crazy people kill. This happens with infrequent but depressing regularity and is not a function of any particular narrative or rhetoric in play at this time. The core complaint of the OP is twofold: 1) that violent images and eliminationist rhetoric are inherently provocative of violence, and 2) that fearful people, hateful people and random nuts can all be influenced by such rhetoric. That general belief does not stand or fall on the basis of whether any particular lunatic has been provoked by a pundit. I will continue to admit, to you **Bricker** , to **Argent Towers** , **Sage Rat** and anyone else who wants to see egg dripping from my face that it is very likely Loughner’s actions were completely independent of anything any conservative public figure has broadcasted, written or spoken in front of a microphone. That there is no good reason to draw a link between his actions and their rhetoric. But that does not change the complaint. So I think my answer to the OP is pretty clear: none of Jared Loughner’s politics are relevant to his rampage. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/54 "2011-01-10T15:50:30Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I will continue to admit, to you **Bricker** , to **Argent Towers** , **Sage Rat** and anyone else who wants to see egg dripping from my face that it is very likely Loughner’s actions were completely independent of anything any conservative public figure has broadcasted, written or spoken in front of a microphone. That there is no good reason to draw a link between his actions and their rhetoric. Maybe and maybe not. From the following article it is looking like the guy is legitimately nuts. That said his psychosis may have been influenced by right-wing propaganda. > [@](#): > > But Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center writes that it’s “hard to say” if Loughner is a right-wing extremist. > > “When you look at the Internet material he purportedly produced, the first impression you get is that the 22-year-old now in custody for the shooting of 19 people in Tucson was completely out of his mind, or at least mildly deranged,” Potok writes. “His writings will be virtually impossible for most people to understand, what with his references to unexplained numbers, his fondness for weird syllogisms, his unexplained references and his apparent semi-literacy.” > > “At this early stage, I think Loughner is probably best described as a mentally ill or unstable person who was influenced by the rhetoric and demonizing propaganda around him,” Potok writes. “Ideology may not explain why he allegedly killed, but it could help explain how he selected his target.” > > SOURCE: [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/what\_we\_know\_about\_attempted\_gabby\_giffords\_assassin\_jared\_lee\_loughner.php?ref=fpa](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/what_we_know_about_attempted_gabby_giffords_assassin_jared_lee_loughner.php?ref=fpa) ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/55 "2011-01-10T16:00:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe and maybe not. > > From the following article it is looking like the guy is legitimately nuts. That said his psychosis may have been influenced by right-wing propaganda. The Southern Poverty Law Center says he “may have been”… well that’s good enough around here isn’t it:rolleyes: ? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/56 "2011-01-10T16:03:20Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > The Southern Poverty Law Center says he “may have been”… well that’s good enough around here isn’t it:rolleyes: ? Just a data point. From that article it seems the guy is a nutcase. Something was bound to set the guy off it seems. If it wasn’t one thing it’d probably have been another. ETA: Is there something in particular wrong with the Southern Poverty Law Center that makes them untrustworthy? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/57 "2011-01-10T16:08:36Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > The Southern Poverty Law Center says he “may have been”… well that’s good enough around here isn’t it:rolleyes: ? Who said it was good enough? Looks to me like **Whack-a-Mole** is saying it’s an open question. I didn’t see any additional evidence cited, so I think the SPLC guy is just speculating like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/58 "2011-01-10T16:10:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t believe that. Chapman shot Lennon. Hinckley shot Reagan. What rhetoric do we blame for those deaths? Both of them were fucking nuts. No reasonable rhetoric required. Charles Witman had a brain tumor; however, that particular trigger is extremely rare. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > There’s evidence [emerging](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071191163461466.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) that he has been fixated on Giffords since 2007. That may be true…but IMVHO it’s a mistake for _anyone_ to assume it’s a factual connection. It’s very possible (and IMVHO more likely) that his delusional brain didn’t target Giffords until he stumbled upon that 2007 memento. Heck, I still own my program from the '88 Republican National Convention, despite my political paradigm shift since then. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/59 "2011-01-10T16:22:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t believe that. Chapman shot Lennon. Hinckley shot Reagan. What rhetoric do we blame for those deaths? Surely you see the flaw in your logic here. Similar events can have radically different causes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/60 "2011-01-10T16:26:31Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Surely you see the flaw in your logic here. Similar events can have radically different causes. Have we established what caused the most recent shooting? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043.md?page=4)