# Jared Loughner’s Politics – What Matters and What Doesn’t? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043 "2011-01-10T00:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/81 "2011-01-11T18:56:22Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > I don’t believe we have. But it doesn’t follow that because Kennedy and Reagan were shot in time of unheightened rhetoric (though I’ve seen some evidence that there was intense anti-Kennedy sentiment in Dallas at that time), heightened rhetoric doesn’t have some responsibility for this incident. Correlation isn’t causation, but causation sure as hell is correlation. IIRC, you are correct about Kennedy. There were “Wanted for Treason” posters up before he went there. But Reagan was a few months into his first term, and the rhetoric was no more heated than it usually was against a successful politician. But you can make out a case that Kennedy was shot for political reasons - Reagan was shot because Hinckley was nuts. I don’t think you can blame any part of that shooting on politics. To date, the motivations of Loughner’s actions (assuming he is guilty, which has not yet been proven in a court of law) appear to resemble Hinckley’s more than LHO’s. IOW, there is no evidence to date that Loughner was even aware of all the stuff over which the left has been fulminating. Indeed, if he targeted the Congresswoman in 2007 that was before the election started at all. The idea that Palin’s website or whatever had anything to do with these shootings seems mostly to be a presumption rather than a conclusion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/82 "2011-01-12T16:03:14Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > You also can not declare that a Martian implant in his brain was not a factor. What exactly are you getting at other than hoping some right-wing ideology caused him to do this? I did not define it as cause and effect. However ,the kind of rhetoric the right wing has adopted has lowered the level of discourse while using gun and violent speech on an ongoing basis. Beck has gone way over the line with his Nazi and Hitler comparisons of Obama. Who would not think they were doing the world a favor by killing Hitler? Loughner was a nut to start with. But I suspect the Beckian and Palinesque acceptance of violent imagery does make assassination more acceptable. Can you claim you were not slightly put off by Palin calling for targeting politicians and re’loading? She was skirting the line of acceptance. But to a demented person, it may have had a greater impact. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/83 "2011-01-12T19:23:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I did not define it as cause and effect. However ,the kind of rhetoric the right wing has adopted has lowered the level of discourse while using gun and violent speech on an ongoing basis. Beck has gone way over the line with his Nazi and Hitler comparisons of Obama. Who would not think they were doing the world a favor by killing Hitler? > Loughner was a nut to start with. But I suspect the Beckian and Palinesque acceptance of violent imagery does make assassination more acceptable. > Can you claim you were not slightly put off by Palin calling for targeting politicians and re’loading? She was skirting the line of acceptance. But to a demented person, it may have had a greater impact. [Soros made the same connection of Bush and Nazis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DuafAqAHrc). The former Chief of Staff once took a steak knife and repeatedly stabbed a table at a restaurant while yelling “dead” and the names of his political opponents. He also mailed a dead fish to someone. There’s nothing subtle about his behavior and he was hired by President Obama who talked about bringing a gun to a knife fight. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/84 "2011-01-13T05:54:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Soros made the same connection of Bush and Nazis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DuafAqAHrc). The former Chief of Staff once took a steak knife and repeatedly stabbed a table at a restaurant while yelling “dead” and the names of his political opponents. He also mailed a dead fish to someone. There’s nothing subtle about his behavior and he was hired by President Obama who talked about bringing a gun to a knife fight. The difference and it is huge, is the right wing do it every day all day. You can scrape up an example of a lefty responding in kind. It is wrong when they do. But if you want to hear a righty stepping over the line, way way over the line ,turn on Limbaugh, beck ,Fox gnus or any right wing talk show across the country. They do it all damn day, every day. that is what they do. They are stimulating a specific group of people in America. Apparently it works well and makes money. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/85 "2011-01-13T06:32:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The difference and it is huge, is the right wing do it every day all day. You can scrape up an example of a lefty responding in kind. It is wrong when they do. But if you want to hear a righty stepping over the line, way way over the line ,turn on Limbaugh, beck ,Fox gnus or any right wing talk show across the country. They do it all damn day, every day. that is what they do. They are stimulating a specific group of people in America. Apparently it works well and makes money. I’ve never heard of anybody in the media stabbing a table and yelling something as subtle as DEATH in conjunction with a political enemies list. But hey, he was only the Chief of Staff for the President of the United States. The people you list have never advocated violence of any sort. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/86 "2011-01-13T10:42:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The people you list have never advocated violence of any sort. Glen Beck - June 10, 2010: Shoot me in the head if you try to change our government. I will stand against you and so will millions of others. We believe in something. You in the media and most in Washington don’t. […] They believe in communism. They believe and have called for a revolution. **You’re going to have to shoot them in the head**. But warning, they may shoot you. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/87 "2011-01-13T10:58:24Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > Glen Beck - June 10, 2010: Shoot me in the head if you try to change our government. I will stand against you and so will millions of others. We believe in something. You in the media and most in Washington don’t. […] They believe in communism. They believe and have called for a revolution. **You’re going to have to shoot them in the head**. But warning, they may shoot you. Well, I guess Beck will never be hired for Chief of Staff or elected mayor of Chicago. Part of the dif is that the loud voices on the right are so much more successful than those on the right in terms of their audience. Most here would argue that is because of their tactics… in reality it is because more listeners identify with their political positions. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/88 "2011-01-13T12:20:17Z")
> [@Walmarticus](#): > > > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > > Jared Loughner’s favourite books include _Communist Manifesto_ and _Mein Kampf_ and his rhetoric sounds moreLibertarian/anti-government in general. > > So that people aren’t taking this seriously, Loughner’s favorite books as far as anyone actually knows: > > > [@](#): > > > > Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Wizard Of OZ, Aesop Fables, The Odyssey, Alice Adventures Into Wonderland, Fahrenheit 451, Peter Pan, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, Phantom Toll Booth, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, Pulp,Through The Looking Glass, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, The Old Man And The Sea, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf, The Republic, and Meno. Yes–a random assembly of popular or hoary titles perceived as “meaningful,” possibly by someone who was trying to portray himself to a Facebook audience as a deep thinker. I doubt Loughner actually read all the books he mentioned, let alone assembled his philosophy from them. Of all the potentially red herrings in this matter, the “favorite books” bit may be the reddest. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > To say that all of the violent right-wing rhetoric motivated Laughner assumes that he took in all of that rhetoric - in other words, that he watched FOX, that he watched Beck’s show or read Sarah Palin’s book or whatever. > > The only place I have heard all of these examples of violent rhetoric from right-wing politicians is _here on this board._ I don’t watch the news regularly, and I don’t read books about contemporary politics. Yes, but a great many people do watch TV news (and/or listen to talk radio) more or less habitually. For many, their internet news reading consists of following up on things they’ve heard about on TV or from acquaintances. And there’s a pretty widespread tendency to only keep reading items and sites that reinforce the kinds of impressions one already holds. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Myself, I converted to an almost entirely internet driven news experience probably 8 years ago. It is literally the case that if not for this message board I would know _very_ little about Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Keith Olbermann, or Glenn Beck. I think some of the people on this forum that apparently watch a lot of television news don’t realize how little exposure someone like myself who is a purely internet-based news hound has to these people. I think my news browsing habits are probably a lot more akin to those of 20-somethings like Loughner who grew up with the internet as a source of information. Frankly, I hope you are not reading much of the same sites that I imagine Loughner may have been. The thing about an internet news experience is that it can _look_ the same for different people, but have _totally_ different content. Everything that’s available from the persons mentioned (or anyone) on television is available on the internet too, in abundance, for those so inclined. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > “All he did was play video games” > > Who could have predicted? 😃 To be clear (though I do find incessant gaming pathological), that remark was in reference to the time (the beginning of his high school years) _before_ he developed his political interests and started to really fall apart psychologically. It was offered as evidence of his normalcy and harmlessness _then_. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/89 "2011-01-13T13:03:18Z")
I don’t see why it matters whether Loughner was motivated by the violent rhetoric. If Joe Average were to shout out to John Doe in public, “Go die in a fire,” and, later, John wound up dead from his house burning, you’d better bet that Joe would be implicated. It’s the same thing here. Sure, Palin may have had nothing to do with it. Sure, Loughner may not have listened to the calls to violence in radio broadcasts that were popular in Arizona. But, the point is, if you say “So and so should be dead,” and So-and-so dies, there are going to be people blaming you for it. So Palin et al should stop this foolishness, before something happens and they can’t prove they had nothing to do with it. Already, it’s probably going to be used in political ads. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043/90 "2011-01-13T15:50:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Actually not really. Adolf Hitler and his book were not a call for a return to Kaiserine monarchy and much of Hitler’s policies after he gained power has enormous discontinuity with not just the Weimar Republic but with the Kaiserreich especially his anti-Semitism (the Second Reich did not have pogroms, or any official discrimination against Jews and even the anti-Semites did not want to kill all the Jews). He was perhaps a revolutionary of the right or a nationalist revolutionary but he was definately a revolutionary. Actually not really. Referring to anti-Semitism as a revolutionary concept shows a complete lack of udnerstanding of either revolutionary thought or the history of Europe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jared-loughner-s-politics-what-matters-and-what-doesn-t/567043.md?page=4)