# Jazz for Jazz Fans **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318 "2003-06-21T00:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/21 "2003-06-21T14:35:08Z")
**Zeldar** …I’ll betcha you’d get more interesting responses and debates if you couched your OPs in specifics. \*\*Best Swing Trumpet Player: Harry James, Roy Eldridge, or Bunny Berigan? The 1950s Prestige West Coast Sides Blow Away the East Coast Blue Notes! Jazz Guitar: Grant Green Could Whomp Wes Montgomery’s Butt Jazz Flute: What is WITH that Herbie Mann Schmuck? Soprano Saxophone: How did we get from Sidney Bechet to Steve Lacy? Gil Evans is the Greatest Arranger in Musical History Modal Murderer: Was Miles Behind the Early Deaths of Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro?\*\* Starting an “I Love Jazz” thread is spreading yourself a little thin, as you’re trying to cover over a hundred years of music. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/22 "2003-06-21T14:59:55Z")
Thanks, Ukulele Ike, but since the musical topics have been fairly generic, and most replies to them have been evidence of a preponderance of non-jazz tastes, I was just testing the waters with this one. I do hope some more specific jazz topics can be produced. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/23 "2003-06-21T15:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > **evidence of a preponderance of non-jazz tastes** Yeah, well, what IS the percentage of CD sales for jazz? Two percent of the whole, or something like that? I think they’re well behind even “classical” music, and only up there because of pseudo-music like Kenny G, and continuing sales of _Kind of Blue_ to hep-cat wannabes. So. I say Berigan rules, as far as swing trumpet goes, although the stuff Eldridge did with Anita O’Day and the Krupa band was pretty damn hot. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/24 "2003-06-21T15:33:12Z")
Ukulele Ike, I do hope you were joking with the “Modal Murderer: Was Miles Behind the Early Deaths of Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro?” thing. There’s (as you doubtless know) the anecdote attributing Miles with something like “Now I am the best trumpet player.” after Brownie’s wreck. I just read a bio of Brownie and his untimley death. Decent book. I would love to see/hear a cutting contest with Brownie and Berigan. ---
**Author:** ![Govindha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5fc32e/32.png) [@Govindha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Govindha)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/25 "2003-06-22T13:44:29Z")
I don’t have a favorite period yet. I’ve been listening to EST and Medeski martin and wood lately. WSHA 88.9 is a great station in the raleigh nc area. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/26 "2003-07-02T16:25:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \* > \*\ ***Zeldar** …I’ll betcha you’d get more interesting responses and debates if you couched your OPs in specifics. > > Jazz Flute: What is WITH that Herbie Mann Schmuck? > > \*\* Ike, looks like very little is with Herbie now, unless it’s the Big Band In The Sky ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/27 "2003-07-02T17:27:39Z")
I absolutely must mention Paul Gonsalves’ remarkable sax solo on _Dimuendo and Crescendo in Blue_ on the album **Ellington Live at Newport**. THe heart of Jazz is improvisation and swing (not swing as in the style swing, but the feeling that the music is moving you forward) and I think this solo is the greatest singular recorded expression of this concept. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/28 "2003-07-02T19:12:16Z")
Smooth “jazz” ain’t jazz, and I’m glad to see the intelligence level of most posters is at its usual and expected high level. A lot of Miles Davis references, but I didn’t see “Birth of The Cool”, a must-have. _Anything_ by Thelonius Monk. Ben Webster and Bird on sax. Joe Morello (Brubeck) on drums (listen to “Castillian Drums” for the best jazz drumming ever done). Chet Baker was prolific and good and there is an excellent film about his miserable life called “Let’s Get Lost”, if you’re looking for conversational topics. Jazz singer: try Jimmy Scott. His cover of “At Last” is phenomenal. Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Art Pepper, the list just goes on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/29 "2003-07-02T19:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zeldar \* > \*\* > Any of you familiar with Michel Petrucciani (sp?)? They play some of his stuff on the radio now and then and his piano work is spectacular._\* Sorry, just spotted this question. Michel Petrucciani was a French citizen born of Italian parents. He suffered from osteogenesis imperfecta (glass bones), a disease that stunted his growth to about 3 feet. His playing was phenomenal, considering his limitations, and he was well-loved in France and the rest of Europe. I have an album of his; I think it’s Blue Note Recordings, or some such. He died in 1999 at the age of 36 and a decent obit and bio is available at [www.elvispelvis.com/michelpetrucciani.htm](http://www.elvispelvis.com/michelpetrucciani.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/30 "2003-07-02T22:04:58Z")
Thanks, Chefguy I’ve only heard Michel on the radio. We have a 24-hour jazz station nearby and they’ve played his stuff off and on for a while. I’m amazed at his playing. And then to learn how limited he was made me appreciate his skills (and taste) even more. Such a shame to lose him so young, but that can be said for so many jazz people. It would be great to have all those who died before they were 40 get together for a jam session. Maybe Herbie Mann is tuning up as we speak, and maybe those younger guys will let him play anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/31 "2003-07-03T00:13:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gangster Octopus \* > I absolutely must mention Paul Gonsalves’ remarkable sax solo on _Dimuendo and Crescendo in Blue_ on the album **Ellington Live at Newport** Just to clarify, **Octopus** is referring to **Ellington at Newport (1956)** as there are two other Newport albums that I’m familiar with, 1958 and 1959, I believe. Gonsalves’ kick-ass, history making solo is definitely on the 1956 concert. This CD has been much on my mind recently, as I can’t seem to _FUCKING FIND IT!_ Excuse the profanity, but I’ve been tearing my place apart on and off for the last few weeks with no success. Furthermore, I have this deep, dark suspicion that as soon as I buy a replacement, the original will turn up behind the damned couch that I’ve already searched at least twice. Anyways, I really enjoy the early New Orleans stuff like King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, Sydney Bechet & Louis Armstrong that kind of grew out of listening to my Grandfather play a lot of this music on the piano. He also loved ragtime and I had a great deal of Scott Joplin’s repetoire practically memorized as a small child. I also inherited a love for pianists like Art Tatum, Teddy Wilson, Fats Waller and, especially, Oscar Peterson. I think Peterson’s gospel tinged composition _Hymn to Freedom_ ranks as one of the best jazz pieces ever written. The mid-50’s to mid-60’s era, hard bop, and modal jazz a la Miles Davis are also great. Some favourite albums from this era are Charles Mingus’ _Mingus Ah Um_, _Oh Yeah!_ and _Black Saint and the Sinner Lady_, Canonball Adderly & Miles Davis on _Somethin’ Else_, Horace Silver’s _Blowin’ The Blues Away_ and Lee Morgan’s _Sidewinder_. I’ve also recently been on a modern female jazz vocalist binge listening to people like Patricia Barber, Susie Arioli, Cassandra Wilson, Tierney Sutton, Holly Cole and even Diana Krall (but definitely not her recent syrupy, Claus Ogerman arranged elevator music). ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/32 "2003-07-03T00:43:22Z")
Hope you find that disc, Hodge. I know just what you mean about replacements. Our tastes overlap about 80%, I’d say. Have you ever heard the Mingus “Wonderland” album? There’s some traded sax work (John Handy is one and I forget the other) on one of the cuts that’s among the best I’ve heard. I used to use that record to demo stereo gear, mostly for the fine separation. I’d go check it out before posting this, but all my LP’s are stashed in the basement and I have yet to buy the CD of that one. Horace Silver has been a main man for a long time. I just learned recently that he started out on piano with Stan Getz. (Well, obviously he was playing before that, but Getz got him started into bigger gigs.) You have any Cliffiord Brown stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/33 "2003-07-03T01:06:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > \*\*looks like very little is with Herbie now, unless it’s the Big Band In The Sky \*\* Crap. I say something mean about the guy, and two weeks later he croaks. Is my face red. (He was okay on that early [Sarah Vaughan disc](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004NHCC/qid=1057194546/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8413016-7265764?v=glance&s=music) though, when he teamed up with Brownie and Paul Quinichette.) You like Horace Silver? Do you know his 1958 Blue Note disc _Further Explorations_? The second cut, “Melancholy Mood,” is one of the most beautiful pieces he ever wrote/played. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/34 "2003-07-03T01:07:32Z")
Thanks Hodge, that is exactly the one I am thinking of. I hope you find it, but you could just buy another and then if the new one turns up you can give the new one to a friend and really open their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/35 "2003-07-03T10:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ukulele Ike \* > \*\* > You like Horace Silver? Do you know his 1958 Blue Note disc _Further Explorations_? The second cut, “Melancholy Mood,” is one of the most beautiful pieces he ever wrote/played. \*\* Yes, Ike, I have that album, but it’s been years since I’ve played any of the old LP’s and I have only gotten CD versions of a handful of things. Not that Silver, though. One of the first albums I ever bought was a Columbia LP called “Drum Suite” (back in my bongo days) thinking it was totally African drumming. Side A was. Side B had the Jazz Messengers, when Silver was with them. I played it a lot back then. “Song For My Father” is my favorite Horace tune, but his style is almost as identifiable as Ellington’s IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Leechboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc348/32.png) [@Leechboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leechboy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/36 "2003-07-03T14:42:14Z")
If we stick to jazz instrumentals, what’s your favorite? Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting by Mingus. Who’s your favorite jazz trumpet player? Miles or Chet, depending on mood. Sax? Pharoah Sanders Guitar? Terje Rypdal Piano? Ellington, Brubeck or Ketil Bjornstad. I have no time whatsoever for Keith Jarret. Bass? Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus What period in jazz history is your favorite? Either the Fifties, Mile’s Jazz-Funk or the last ten years of Scandanavian jazz. How do you perceive jazz programming on TV? There’s Jazz on TV? Where? Is there a good jazz station on web radio? Is there a good jazz radio station near enough where you live to make it one you listen to? There’s one show I listen to, but it mixes wiith experimental electronica. Any votes for who has the most stupefyingly complex liner notes? Mine goes to Mingus’ Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/37 "2003-07-03T14:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Leechboy \* > \*\*How do you perceive jazz programming on TV? > > There’s Jazz on TV? Where? > > Any votes for who has the most stupefyingly complex liner notes? Mine goes to Mingus’ Black Saint and the Sinner Lady. \*\* Well, Leechboy, if you count the PBS series Ken Burns did, or the Biography (A&E) shows from time to time on some jazz player’s like (can’t recall more than a few of the biggies like Ella, Louis, Duke, Frank,etc.) or the BET Jazz channel, there is _some_ occasional jazz. Austin City Limits (PBS) now and then will have a jazz-like group. Not a whole lot, that’s for sure. As for those notes you mentioned, I have that album, but just remember the fine cover. The notes to so many albums in that period were obviously marketing inspired. The best notes I’ve read are Bill Evans’s on “Kind Of Blue.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/38 "2003-07-03T15:00:04Z")
“some jazz player’s like” should be “some jazz player’s life” ---
**Author:** ![Leechboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc348/32.png) [@Leechboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leechboy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/39 "2003-07-03T15:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zeldar \* > **Well, Leechboy, if you count the PBS series Ken Burns did, or the Biography (A&E) shows from time to time on some jazz player’s like (can’t recall more than a few of the biggies like Ella, Louis, Duke, Frank,etc.) or the BET Jazz channel, there is _some_ occasional jazz. Austin City Limits (PBS) now and then will have a jazz-like group.** Ahh yes. Unfortunately I live in Australia, where the only jazz you’ll see on TV is awful soulless shite like James Morrison or Paul Grabowski. (The latter earning my eternal ire by being the band leader on the well documented Letterman rip-off “Tonight Live with Steve Vizard.” Somehow he managed to be even more irritating than Paul Schaefer.) ---
**Author:** ![E.Thorp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@E.Thorp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E.Thorp)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318/40 "2003-07-03T15:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re a jazz fan or have strong positive feelings for jazz music, can you help come up with a good topic to use that will keep the subject more or less on jazz, without offending those whose tastes lie elsewhere? Why not just keep “jazz” in the title? “What is jazz” in Great Debates, “Best drummer” in IMHO, “My cat likes jazz” in MPSIMS, etc. (Apologies if these threads already exist.) > [@](#): > > There’s a recent thread on “favorite instrumental” that has responses all over the musical map. If we stick to jazz instrumentals, what’s your favorite? “Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting” from Charles Mingus, _Mingus at Antibes_. An wonderful tenor sax solo by Booker Ervin, immediately following which Eric Dolphy stands up with his alto and is translated to another sphere of existence. Amazing. > [@](#): > > Who’s your favorite jazz trumpet player? Sax? Guitar? Piano? Violin? Other instrument(s)? Trumpet: Miles Davis 1955-67 Sax: tenor, Dexter Gordon; alto, Eric Dolphy; soprano, Steve Lacy or Branford Marsalis Guitar: Emily Remler Piano: Bill Evans, Kenny Barron, Joanne Brackeen, Brad Mehldau, Lennie Tristano, Duke Ellington Bass: Jean-Jacques Avenel Drums: Roy Haynes Vibes: Bobby Hutcherson, Milt Jackson Clarinet: Benny Goodman, Don Byron Many, many others… > [@](#): > > What period in jazz history is your favorite? About 1955-67 > [@](#): > > Did you see the Ken Burns PBS series on Jazz? If so, what did you think of it? I liked it just fine. I tried to focus on what it included, not on what it excluded, and so had a wonderful time with Armstrong, Ellington, etc…much footage I’d never seen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-for-jazz-fans/183318.md?page=3)