# Jazz is crap **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2000, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385 "2000-01-12T04:03:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Basil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Sweet\_Basil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Basil)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/61 "2000-01-16T20:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by eden: > [I have heard music (in the loosest sense of the word) termed “jazz” that was cacophanous noodling. > > And can anyone defend the cacophanous noodling? Please don’t just tell me I don’t “get it,” tell me what there is to get. I have studied music and play several instruments, so you can use musical terms in your explanation without too much trepidation. > \*\* It’s so subjective… To many of his predecessors and contemporaries, Stravinsky was “cacophanous noodling”. Same for anyone who went a little “out”. If you don’t “get” it, that’s ok. You really don’t need to. I don’t “get” Kenny G. Eventually, people that do enjoy such “noodling” do realize patterns and frameworks or reactions to them at the least. It’s completely up to the individual to decide where “crap” ends and “beautiful music” starts. Sweet Basil ---
**Author:** ![eden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5f9b8f/32.png) [@eden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eden)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/62 "2000-01-17T17:44:00Z")
Uke, Sweet Basil, thank you. Sorry for the non-pit like behaviour here but I’m much obliged. Jazz I have really enjoyed generally falls into the 30s period…Fletcher Henderson, Benny Goodman, Count Basie, et al. I’ll have to listen to some be-bop to get a feel for that. The noodling I’m referring to must be more modern; probably an attempt to “paint with sound” a la Jackson Pollack. I’m sure there is an idea behind it, and maybe a pattern…but I’ll never subject myself to enough of it to figure out what that is. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/63 "2000-01-17T17:53:00Z")
Very nice synopsis of the jazz scene, Uke. When you going to discuss piano styles? As you probably know, I’m a pretty big fan of Ocsar Peterson and Art Tatum. Of course, Tatum was a Toledo native, so I’m a bit biased. * * * That it is unwise to be heedless ourselves while we are giving advice to others, I will show in a few lines. – Phædrus – ---
**Author:** ![SaxFace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SaxFace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaxFace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/64 "2000-01-18T14:38:00Z")
Bravo, Uke. * * * Formerly unknown as “Melanie” ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/65 "2000-01-18T15:23:00Z")
Unc: Piano styles, piano styles… How’s this? James P. Johnson Willie “The Lion” Smith Jelly Roll Morton Fats Waller Earl Hines Teddy Wilson Art Tatum Mary Lou Williams Bud Powell Thelonious Monk Erroll Garner Lennie Tristano John Lewis Oscar Peterson Horace Silver Bill Evans Cecil Taylor Herbie Hancock Chick Corea Joe Zawinul Marcus Roberts Cyrus Chestnut. That should cover it, from barrelhouse and stride to retro-barrelhouse and stride. (I’ve left out pianists who are better-known as arrangers and bandleaders, like Ellington, Basie, Kenton, Jay McShann, Gil Evans, George Russell, etc.) For descriptions of the individual styles of the above ivory-tinklers, send two box-tops and $150 to Ukulele Ike, care of this station. * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/66 "2000-01-18T15:50:00Z")
As much as I hate Miles Davis ( and believe me, I HATE miles Davis), He did bring Jazz out of a rut that it was in. and his style did influence one of my favourite artists, Gil Scott Heron. Im not a great Jazz fan, but hearing Gil sing “Pieces of a Man”, amazing. Oh, fro all the people on this side of the Atlantic, Dark Wing Duck’s ideology of a jazz fan is best represented in Jazz Club, on the Fast Show. ---
**Author:** ![RobRoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ba0ec/32.png) [@RobRoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobRoy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2000, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/67 "2000-01-23T23:52:00Z")
In the next century much of “avant-garde” classical will be forgotten in favor of the real “classical” music of the century - JAZZ. “Jazz” was judged the word of the century by some dictionary society (I forget) this year. ---
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2000, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/68 "2000-01-24T07:05:00Z")
Uke, ye dunna like _Mose Allison_ ? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/69 "2000-01-25T06:31:00Z")
Yeah, Mose is okay. I don’t see him as any great ground-breaker, hence his non-appearance on the above list. Hell, one of my TOP choice piano-players is Phineas Newborn, and he didn’t make the list either…being a kinda modernist version of Tatum. Herbie Nichols broke new ground, but nobody followed him, so he’s sort of a fascinating dead end…Dodo Marmarosa and Hampton Hawes I could listen to all day, but how different ARE they from a dozen other bebop pianists? I’ve always wanted to have t-shirts made up that read Classical Music… EUROPE’S JAZZ ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Basil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Sweet\_Basil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Basil)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2000, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/70 "2000-01-24T21:47:00Z")
Hey Ike! What about Hammond Organists?? Do you have a list of them? (see profile…) Sweet Basil ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2000, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/71 "2000-01-24T22:29:00Z")
SB: I remember when I first heard Jimmy Smith on the Hammond B-3…I saw GAWD. (note to neophytes: One of the interesting offshoots of the soul/funk movement of the late '50s was the rise of the Organ Combo. Philadelphia, for some reason, was the epicenter of this phenom. Generally made up of an alto or tenor saxophone, electric guitar, and a Hammond B-3 [sometimes drums were added, but never bass…the organist was expected to handle the bass-line via pedalboard]. These combos made some of the moodiest, smokiest, three-ay-emiest jazz ever recorded. Jimmy Smith was considered to be the Charlie Parker of the jazz electric organ. Other men considered to be hot stuff were/are Brother Jack McDuff, Sir Charles Thompson, and Jimmy McGriff.) * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/72 "2000-01-25T06:47:00Z")
True 'nuff, Uke… I was thinking about Allison’s sarcastic/ironic lyrics, feeding DWDuck’s fear of the “uppity” jazz scene. BTW, you’re starting to remind me of my old schoolmate Phil Schaap… ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/73 "2000-01-25T07:33:00Z")
I stayed away from posting in this topic long enough. K, hear me out. I listen to many types of music; hard rock, classic rock, classical, new age, jazz, smooth jazz, country, pop etc. I am not one to poopoo anything except rap…that’s where I draw the line. I have Nirvana, Queensryche, Bach, Vivaldi, Sade, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Alan Jackson, Chris Isaak, Eddie Money, Harry Conick Jr., etc. I don’t limit myself. My latest aquisition (sp?) of a CD is a smooth jazz CD, I posted in MPSIMS, here’s the link, you need Real Player to hear it, but take a listen you non-jazz likers and see if by chance you might find it as sexy and soulful as I do. If not that’s cool too. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000604C/102-9532216-1933622](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000604C/102-9532216-1933622) Sheesh, just because one likes a form of music hate doesn’t meant the world is coming to an end \< grin. \> ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Basil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Sweet\_Basil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Basil)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/74 "2000-01-25T20:53:00Z")
Good List Ike! I like McGriff way more than Smith… Father: Jimmy Smith Son: Joey DeFrancesco Holy Ghost: Larry Young Sweet Basil ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/75 "2000-01-25T22:10:00Z")
Yeah, McGriff has done several tasty little discs over the past few years with Hank Crawford, the alto player. Crawford and Lou Donaldson are the fellows who made me write “tenor OR alto saxophone” in the earlier post, being the only two altoists I know who regularly or irregularly perform with organ groups. The tenor sax was much more common in these combos…you can really THROB with a tenor, and it sounds good with that leslie thing going on in the Hammond. Ike Quebec and Sonny Stitt did some nice tenor work in organ groups. * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/76 "2000-02-04T21:25:00Z")
Bringing this baby back up to the top . . . After watching that PBS show on jazz this week, I went through my old 78s and see that I have a recording of Handy’s Orchestra playing “Livery Stable Blues” and “That ‘Jazz’ Dance.” For some reason I noted that it’s from 1918, though I can’t recall where I got that date . . . Any of you Jazzbos know if I have a treaure here? Worth any moola? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/77 "2000-02-04T21:29:00Z")
Bringing this baby back to the top . . . After watching that jazz show on PBS, I checked my pile of 78s and see that I have a recording of Handy’s Orchestra playing “Livery Stable Blues” and “That ‘Jazz’ Dance.” Any of you Jazzbos know if this is a treasure I should be auctioning off on eBay? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/78 "2000-02-04T21:30:00Z")
Bringing this baby back to the top . . . After watching that jazz show on PBS, I checked my pile of 78s and see that I have a recording of Handy’s Orchestra playing “Livery Stable Blues” and “That ‘Jazz’ Dance.” Any of you Jazzbos know if this is a treasure I should be auctioning off on eBay? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/79 "2000-02-06T02:10:00Z")
Here come Ukulele “Every Other Post” Ike, again, hide your daughters. The famous recording of “Livery Stable Blues” was by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band…it was supposed to be the first jazz recording ever, and it sold several million copies. Since it sold several million copies, there are a whole helluva lot of them left out there; several thousand, anyway. Couldn’t be too valuable. And what you have there is a cover of the tune by “Handy’s Orchestra.” Would this be W.C. Handy? Any clue on the label? * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![spankboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@spankboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spankboy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385/80 "2000-02-06T15:44:00Z")
**waving arms** Johnny Hodges! Johnny Hodges! On the other end of the love/hate spectrum: Personally, I’d like to spend a weekend hitting Kenny G in the testicles with a mallet. I hate that guy. Everytime I hear him (elevator, dentists’ office, re-education camp), he uses one particular note as a backbone for his riffs that makes my fillings vibrate. I don’t know what note it is, but it sounds roughly like a garbage truck backing over a goose. Curly-haired spawny get. -sb * * * They say the Lord loves drunks, fools and little children. Two out of three ain’t bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jazz-is-crap/4385.md?page=5)