# Jeb Bush marked 'Hispanic' on Fla. voter registration form **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 6, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956 "2015-04-06T14:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/41 "2015-04-07T06:24:57Z")
The distinction, as I see it, is that Hispanic is an ethnicity rather than a racial group identifier. If you live in Florida and you speak Spanish at home, watch the evening news in Spanish, subscribe to the Spanish language newspaper, are in a Spanish speaking social group, etc… then for practical purposes you are Hispanic. Doesn’t matter if mom and/or dad were Hispanic. It’s not a racial thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/42 "2015-04-07T06:30:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And President Obama is commonly referred to as being “black”. Whatever the hell that means. > > So, by what means do you propose to authenticate her self-identification? DNA analysis? In your estimation, what it is approximate ratio one needs to be, say, Italian? Rather than having “some Italian heritage”? > > At what point does credulity get stretched? In her case, it stretches credulity because she has no actual documentation that she has any Native American ancestry. She would not be perceived by an average person as being Native American, and she has no cultural ties to people who are, authentically, Native American. I would say that about anyone who claimed any ethnicity, whether Black, White, Italian, German, Turkish or Native American. Rather, I would ask: What evidence do you have that you ARE that ethnicity? If none is available, then it’s an interesting story, not a fact. When I say “it stretched credulity”, that is not the same as saying “she is not Native American”. It just means that, given the facts at hand, one cannot conclude that she is and claiming otherwise, well, stretches credulity. If you want to talk about Obama, we can look at his birth certificate (long or short form) and see his father’s race listed as “African”. One needn’t stretch credulity to conclude that someone whose father is black, and who is perceived as black, actually is black. And since he isn’t disputing that observation, there is no credulity to be stretched in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/43 "2015-04-07T09:18:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When I say “it stretched credulity”, that is not the same as saying “she is not Native American”. It just means that, given the facts at hand, one cannot conclude that she is and claiming otherwise, well, stretches credulity. You cannot find a claim to be incredulous without also believing the claim is not true. Stretching credulity means you think it is likely to be untrue. It is not the neutral statement you are claiming. The problem is, there almost never is documentation for these situations. But lack of documentation doesn’t mean they don’t happen. If the rule were that I needed to be 1/64 to be considered Native American, I would have checked that box, too, despite having not a single bit of documentation. It stretches incredulity to think you didn’t mean to imply she was either lying or ignorant. Not that you just were claiming that she didn’t have proof. I do agree these aren’t the same thing, though. But the idea that Bush benefited from claiming to be Hispanic is just as ridiculous as the idea that Warren benefited from claiming to be Native American. We had the same level of documentation for both, and actually counter-documentation for the claim about Warren. That’s the point we were making, from the get go. If you don’t disagree with that, then what was the point of bringing up that political talking point? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/44 "2015-04-07T12:34:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > EW … claims to be Native American. Cite? > [@](#): > > That stretches credulity. Not quite as much as yet _another_ of your attempts to show “both sides do it”. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/45 "2015-04-07T12:56:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not quite as much as yet _another_ of your attempts to show “both sides do it”. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But we know what the reaction would be if the parties were reversed, don’t we? If HRC had claimed to be Hispanic, the guffaws on Fox would continue right up until the election. This from your very first post in the thread. If anyone ever mentions how the dope tends to beat the everloving shit out of even the most mundane of topics I’ll agree by linking to this one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/46 "2015-04-07T12:57:51Z")
Apparently you think you have a point. Unfortunately it’s not clear to us lesser beings. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/47 "2015-04-07T15:08:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You cannot find a claim to be incredulous without also believing the claim is not true. You don’t have it quite right. It’s the evidence provided that matters. If the evidence is scant, then there is no reason to accept the claim as true. That is not the same as claiming it is false. It’s not up to me to prove it wrong, it’s up to the claimant to prove it’s true. Until that happens, I am going to remain agnostic and say that you need better evidence if you want you claim to be credulous. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/48 "2015-04-07T15:19:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Cite? > Not quite as much as yet _another_ of your attempts to show “both sides do it”. This thread is really supposed to be about Bush, but according to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/warren.asp) ‘claims of Native American heritage to gain an edge over other candidates for a job at Harvard’ are ‘Unproven’: > [@](#): > > The legitimacy of Warren’s claims to Native American heritage has certainly been challenged by many critics, and it is true that while Warren was at U. Penn. Law School she put herself on the “Minority Law Teacher” list as Native American) in the faculty directory of the Association of American Law Schools, and that Harvard Law School at one time promoted Warren as a Native American faculty member. But specific evidence that she gained her position at Harvard (at least in part) through her claims to Native American heritage is lacking. Warren denied applying for special consideration as a person of Native American heritage during her career, and when the matter was examined in 2012 in response to Brown’s claims, people with whom Warren had worked similarly denied her ancestral background’s factoring into the professional opportunities afforded her: > The former chairman of the American Association of Law Schools, David Bernstein, told the Herald that the group’s directory once served as a tip sheet for administrators. “In the old days before the Internet, you’d pull out the AALS directory and look up people,” he said. “There are schools that, if they were looking for a minority faculty member, would go to that list and might say, ‘I didn’t know Elizabeth Warren was a minority.’” > > Warren said she didn’t know Harvard had used her heritage as proof of diversity until reading about the issue in the news, according to a Herald report. She also denied that she ever tried to gain a professional advantage through her lineage. > Warren responded she was recruited for the positions and did not “apply” for them; and for the most part, her record did not indicate any identification as part of a minority group: > The Globe obtained a portion of Warren’s application to Rutgers, which asks if prospective students want to apply for admission under the school’s Program for Minority Group Students. Warren answered “no.” > > For her employment documents at the University of Texas, Warren indicated that she was “white.” > > But Penn’s 2005 Minority Equity Report identified her as the recipient of a 1994 faculty award, listing her name in bold to signify that she was a minority. The Herald has twice quoted Charles Fried, the head of the Harvard appointing committee that recommended Warren for her position in 1995, saying that the Democratic candidate’s heritage didn’t come up during the course of her hiring. “It simply played no role in the appointments process,” he said. “It was not mentioned and I didn’t mention it to the faculty.” > > The Herald later quoted Fried, a former U.S. Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan, saying, “I can state categorically that the subject of her Native American ancestry never once was mentioned.” > > Read more at [Did Elizabeth Warren Lie About Her Native American Heritage to Land a Job at Harvard? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/warren.asp#hXKC5wm54gLUzRO3.99) John is right, though, that these two situations aren’t alike. Bush made a mistake on a form and never has claimed to be Hispanic (though, frankly, he’s got better justification for that than Elizabeth Warren does to Native American, since at a minimum he actually has a Hispanic wife and kids and speaks the language fluently and has lived in a Hispanic country for several years…I seriously doubt Liz has lived on a Native American Pueblo for several years or speaks any Native American language fluently, but if she does then I’m willing to be educated about that). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/49 "2015-04-07T15:22:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Apparently you think you have a point. Unfortunately it’s not clear to us lesser beings. It strains credulity that you don’t understand what his point was. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/50 "2015-04-07T15:48:39Z")
Sorry I made a dumb throwaway joke and didn’t think it through. It falls apart on analysis. Warren’s and Bush’s situations are different. I was intending to make the implication that right-wingers actually care about Warren’s claim, while left-wingers won’t care about Bush’, but nobody should care much about either of them. I failed hard. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/51 "2015-04-07T16:00:32Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Sorry I made a dumb throwaway joke and didn’t think it through. It falls apart on analysis. Warren’s and Bush’s situations are different. > > I was intending to make the implication that right-wingers actually care about Warren’s claim, while left-wingers won’t care about Bush’, but nobody should care much about either of them. I failed hard. Nicely put. But did you read post #2 in this thread? 🙂 Still, your point is well taken that this is unlikely to be brought up by “left wingers” of any import during the campaign, should Bush get the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/52 "2015-04-07T16:05:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You don’t have it quite right. It’s the evidence provided that matters. If the evidence is scant, then there is no reason to accept the claim as true. That is not the same as claiming it is false. It’s not up to me to prove it wrong, it’s up to the claimant to prove it’s true. Until that happens, I am going to remain agnostic and say that you need better evidence if you want you claim to be credulous. Credible, not credulous and it’s still not the right word. Something that’s credible is just capable of being true, but doesn’t have to be. There may not be proof that Warren is native american but, given her known history, that her ancestry may contain native americans is entirely plausible. Do you also go around interrogating people with Kiss Me, I’m Irish shirts on St. Patrick’s Day demanding proof of their heritage? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/53 "2015-04-07T16:08:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …I seriously doubt Liz has lived on a Native American Pueblo for several years or speaks any Native American language fluently, but if she does then I’m willing to be educated about that). Go to a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, how many there speak Gaelic? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/54 "2015-04-07T16:09:44Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > … Do you also go around interrogating people with Kiss Me, I’m Irish shirts on St. Patrick’s Day demanding proof of their heritage? Great minds think alike. Twisted minds as well, it would seem. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/55 "2015-04-07T16:11:17Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Credible, not credulous and it’s still not the right word. Something that’s credible is just capable of being true, but doesn’t have to be. > > There may not be proof that Warren is native american but, given her known history, that her ancestry may contain native americans is entirely plausible. Do you also go around interrogating people with Kiss Me, I’m Irish shirts on St. Patrick’s Day demanding proof of their heritage? The “Kiss me, I’m Irish” people do not use the claim of Irish ancestry to get any tangible benefit (such as Irish citizenship, for example). And if they do, that claim is examined and more proof than a t-shirt is required. Jeb Bush marked the checkbox on a form that is not used for anything other than general statistics and has not derived or intended to derive any benefit from it. That’s the difference from Warren’s claim. Apart from this, is “Hispanic” a cultural or a racial designation? Because if it is cultural, then Jeb is, in fact, Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/56 "2015-04-07T16:12:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Go to a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, how many there speak Gaelic? How many people who live in Ireland do you suppose speak Gaelic? Most of the people who I know who live on Native American pueblos (which is quite a few) speak at least some of their tribes language, however, so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch. However, my main point was that the two situations aren’t alike. Bush isn’t claiming to be Hispanic, while Warren does claim to have Native American ancestry. Bush’s claim to not being Hispanic could be wrong, of course, and Liz claim could be correct (seems like a simple DNA test would work…I had one done a year or so ago and it was a hell of a lot of fun and eye opening as well, and wasn’t that expensive), but regardless they aren’t alike. Except as a talking point endlessly beat to death in threads such as this one to prove that the other side is or would be really bad and completely different than ones own side. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/57 "2015-04-07T16:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=Terr] Apart from this, is “Hispanic” a cultural or a racial designation? Because if it is cultural, then Jeb is, in fact, Hispanic. [/QUOTE] It’s both, and regardless he’s not Hispanic, and he’s been pretty clear that he doesn’t claim to be either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/58 "2015-04-07T16:18:41Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Credible, not credulous and it’s still not the right word. Something that’s credible is just capable of being true, but doesn’t have to be. OK. I guess. > [@](#): > > There may not be proof that Warren is native american but, given her known history, that her ancestry may contain native americans is entirely plausible. Which I already noted, upthread. > [@](#): > > Do you also go around interrogating people with Kiss Me, I’m Irish shirts on St. Patrick’s Day demanding proof of their heritage? Depends on how hot she is. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/59 "2015-04-07T16:20:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apart from this, is “Hispanic” a cultural or a racial designation? Because if it is cultural, then Jeb is, in fact, Hispanic. Yet another statement that strains credulity. Or is that credibility? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956/60 "2015-04-07T16:24:38Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s both, and regardless he’s not Hispanic, and he’s been pretty clear that he doesn’t claim to be either. I am not talking about claims. I am saying culturally (in speaking the language fluently, being steeped in the culture, and having lived in Mexico) he is Hispanic. In fact he is quite a bit more Hispanic, culturally, than some people I know of Mexican ancestry who don’t speak Spanish and don’t know much about the Hispanic culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeb-bush-marked-hispanic-on-fla-voter-registration-form/716956.md?page=4)