# Jedi dies like a punk (spoiler, and rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168 "2005-05-23T21:31:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/41 "2005-05-24T12:51:20Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > When no other rationalization works, you can always default to “blinded by the power of the dark side, they were.” I can accept that. It’s simple and cheesy as hell, just like the rest of the movies. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/42 "2005-05-24T12:56:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Defensive much? > > Anyways, I posted why the normally ass kicking and relatively danger sensing Jedi were caught by surprise. > > And so? > > -Joe Defensive always. 😛 I don’t like your explanation because it is overly fancy and runs contrary to jedi training. They were supposed to trust in their feelings and these were jedi masters, not padawans. Doubted, they should not have. Also, the pink guy with the skyscraper head and Colonel Sanders facial hair saw them coming and only blocked a few shots before going down. Sorry, I like Waverly’s explanation better. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/43 "2005-05-24T13:02:00Z")
Yep, you can clear up just about any plot question with a combination of Yoda wisdom and syntax. I’ll have to try it on my expense reports. “Needed the most expensive wine, I did, to combat the sobriety of the dark side.” ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/44 "2005-05-24T13:14:50Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Yep, you can clear up just about any plot question with a combination of Yoda wisdom and syntax. > > I’ll have to try it on my expense reports. “Needed the most expensive wine, I did, to combat the sobriety of the dark side.” If that works, then Great Debates is going to be a much more entertaining forum. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/45 "2005-05-24T14:54:48Z")
I note that no one else has complained about this, so I must rail into the darkness by myself. From _Star Wars_: > [@](#): > > BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force. Now, did Darth Vader “hunt down and destroy” the Jedi Knights? No. No, no, no. There was no hunting down going on there. Palpatine gave his dinky order and then we get our Godfather-esque montage of Jedis dying. They’re all dead, they died like punks, I’ll grant you that. But where was the hunting down, eh? That phrase lends itself to the conception that we’d see Vader … well, you know … _hunting down_ the Jedis, not having them all die at once due to a preprogrammed clone order. I’m sure someone can explain this by focusing on the “helped the Empire” part and claiming Vader didn’t need to track the Jedi one by one and kill them off, but there was no hunting down at all. Like other people have posted, it reeks of laziness on the part of the writer. [sub]Hmm, I’ve already used up 90 minutes, and I have to squeeze this into two hours, and I still have my 20 minute battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin … oh, let’s just have all the Jedi die at once. No one will notice.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/46 "2005-05-24T14:59:40Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I note that no one else has complained about this, so I must rail into the darkness by myself. From _Star Wars_:Now, did Darth Vader “hunt down and destroy” the Jedi Knights? No. No, no, no. There was no hunting down going on there. Palpatine gave his dinky order and then we get our Godfather-esque montage of Jedis dying. They’re all dead, they died like punks, I’ll grant you that. > > But where was the hunting down, eh? That phrase lends itself to the conception that we’d see Vader … well, you know … _hunting down_ the Jedis, not having them all die at once due to a preprogrammed clone order. > > I’m sure someone can explain this by focusing on the “helped the Empire” part and claiming Vader didn’t need to track the Jedi one by one and kill them off, but there was no hunting down at all. Like other people have posted, it reeks of laziness on the part of the writer. Umm…you know the part where Anakin went into the Jedi Temple and (…wait for it…) **HUNTED DOWN** all those Jedi in the temple? The part where they went from room to room **HUNTING DOWN** the Jedi, Padawans, and Younglings? I’m guessing that part. -Joe, going to be **HUNTING DOWN** lunch soon. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/47 "2005-05-24T15:12:04Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Umm…you know the part where Anakin went into the Jedi Temple and (…wait for it…) **HUNTED DOWN** all those Jedi in the temple? The part where they went from room to room **HUNTING DOWN** the Jedi, Padawans, and Younglings? Except for an oh-so-brief hologram, we never see Anakin kill a full-grown Jedi. We see clonetroopers shooting them in the temple, but we only see Anakin save his blade for the most helpless, least talented Jedis-in-training. Which is a plain and simple cop out (and perfectly consistent with how everyone yammers on about how “powerful” Anakin is, but we very rarely get to see it in any impressive way). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/48 "2005-05-24T15:30:34Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Except for an oh-so-brief hologram, we never see Anakin kill a full-grown Jedi. We see clonetroopers shooting them in the temple, but we only see Anakin save his blade for the most helpless, least talented Jedis-in-training. Which is a plain and simple cop out (and perfectly consistent with how everyone yammers on about how “powerful” Anakin is, but we very rarely get to see it in any impressive way). Nitpicks. Completely and totally. First of all, you start off with a contradiction to your entire point. Allow me to nitpick back - Obi-Wan never specified that Anakin killed Jedi Knights or Jedi Masters. He said “Jedi”. Padawans and Younglings would count then, wouldn’t they? There you go. Stupid complaint solved (stupidly). This is like the montage Jedi dying “like punks”. If each one of them had gotten four or five minutes of fighting before being killed would there be praise? Of course not. Instead it would most likely be 'Lucas wasted twenty minutes on a bunch of characters we knew would have to die anyways! What a hack!" -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/49 "2005-05-24T15:48:29Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I’m sure someone can explain this by focusing on the “helped the Empire” part and claiming Vader didn’t need to track the Jedi one by one and kill them off, but there was no hunting down at all. Like other people have posted, it reeks of laziness on the part of the writer. You are making the assumption that with the death of the named Jedi in the movie, you have seen the death of _all_ the Jedi. In addition to what went on unseen in the temple, it is strongly suggested that there are more Jedi out there. After all, the Empire took the time to send out a beacon drawing additional Jedi back to the temple, and Obi-Wan and Yoda took the time to change the message and send the Jedi into hiding. Seems to be that between the events of RotS and ANH, Vader might well have been doing some Jedi hunting. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/50 "2005-05-24T15:58:35Z")
This was one of the most compelling and tragic sections of the movie. I understand why **Sweetums** is upset about Aalaya’s death. It was tragic. It was supposed to be tragic! ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/51 "2005-05-24T15:59:21Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > You are making the assumption that with the death of the named Jedi in the movie, you have seen the death of _all_ the Jedi. In addition to what went on unseen in the temple, it is strongly suggested that there are more Jedi out there. After all, the Empire took the time to send out a beacon drawing additional Jedi back to the temple, and Obi-Wan and Yoda took the time to change the message and send the Jedi into hiding. > > Seems to be that between the events of RotS and ANH, Vader might well have been doing some Jedi hunting. Yes, that is true, and is a much better explanation than **Merijeek** ’s comments about killing little kids counting as hunting down and destroying the Jedi. Vader chopped up a day care, he didn’t track down the elite guardians of order in the galaxy and kill them one by one. However, the impression that I got from Obi-Wan’s comments did not imply a simultaneous murder of Jedi by clone troops, and that’s my complaint. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Allow me to nitpick back - Obi-Wan never specified that Anakin killed Jedi Knights or Jedi Masters. He said “Jedi”. Padawans and Younglings would count then, wouldn’t they? There you go. Stupid complaint solved (stupidly). But … he did. I quote again from the same source: > [@](#): > > helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights It takes cartwheels and convoluted explanations to reconcile these, and that’s all that bugs me. I would have much preferred it to be a smoother transition between the two movies. Certainly, Lucas shouldn’t have had five minutes per duel—there was already too much overly-flashy lightsaber combat already—but I would have been a little happier had the movie fit a little better with what was already established. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/52 "2005-05-24T16:16:14Z")
**Waverly** , I noticed that too. And yes, it’s just one more instance of the story being revised later so it doesn’t match what we were originally told. The “she’s just stunned” thing is the same, and while I don’t know anything else about the Jedi in question and I don’t care to, I find that much more annoying. He’s already revising what I _just saw in the movie last Thursday_! What kind of an idiot would intentionally mislead the viewers of the movie in this minor way in order to tie into some minor fan extended thing? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/53 "2005-05-24T16:18:18Z")
I’m sorry, it was **lno** , not **Waverly**. As with a lot of things in Star Wars, you can create a more complicated, backward-reaching explanation that’s technically correct if you want to, but there’s no point. The fact is that the movie leaves the impression that the Jedi are all dead save two, who of course never get hunted down (nevermind). It’s not worth the effort of a length explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/54 "2005-05-24T16:28:17Z")
> [@lno](#): > > However, the impression that I got from Obi-Wan’s comments did not imply a simultaneous murder of Jedi by clone troops, and that’s my complaint. Obi-wan said that Darth Vader _helped_ the Empire destroy the Jedi, not that he did it all himself. Obi-wan never said that Dath Vader single-handedly hunted down a bunch of Jedi on various planets. Not to mention how that whole speech is hardly Obi-wan at his most honest. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/55 "2005-05-24T16:28:23Z")
Uh, forgive me, but _that was the entire point of that scene._ The Jedi _were_ killed like punks, because the clones probably couldn’t have killed them face to face. The idea was to illustrate the tragedy of the murder of the Jedi and the duplicity of Palpatine. It’s one of about three scenes in the movie where the pathos worked, in my opinion - no Lucas-style dialogue to trample all over the fourth wall. > [@Sweetums](#): > > I can see a point about this being a way to demonstrate the empires caloneness and evil, but honestly I thing you are giveing Lucas too much credit. Many people have notice that the whole Jedi killing montage was cribbed from s similar montage in the Godfather trilogy. There I think is the key, Lucas cared more about doing some sort of “homage” to another movie, than telling a story. I’m probably the only person in the world who hated _The Godfather_, so I don’t actually remember the scene being cribbed here. But if you’re pissed because a movie character didn’t get a heroic death, then you just plain don’t get it. There’s nothing noble or heroic about Palpatine; he will press any advantage at the cost of fairness or honor. I don’t understand how you could possibly read any other meaning into this scene, because it’s just so clear. > [@Sweetums](#): > > Therin lies my point. Aayla (and the other jedi killed in that montage). had stories to tell. The people who created those stories were better at telling stories than Lucas himself. This was a character created by someone else for Lucas’s universe. Yes once Lucas took control of the character he could do with it what he wanted, but I belive that he owed it to the origional storyteller to bring the story to a satisfying conclusion. Their stories were told in books, then. I don’t understand why you would expect a filmmaker to try to reconcile his films with fan fiction, but _he_ was the original storyteller, not some two-bit novelist. (That’s not to imply that Lucas is a particularly _good_ storyteller, just that this is a nonsensical criticism.) Can you explain why there’s some moral imperative to give a heroic character a suitably heroic death? (I say “moral” because that’s the clear implication of your use of the word “owed”.) Can you come up with an argument to support this view? Because it makes no sense. The story works precisely because the characters were murdered in cold blood. That’s the _point_ of it. How would it have made a better story otherwise? I guess I understand having a certain emotional bond to a fictional character, but you’re really not making sense here. The characters are not real, and there’s no obligation to give them happy lives, especially when it comes at the cost of decent storytelling. > [@Sweetums](#): > > My point isn’t that i am ticked that Lucas killed off a character I liked, it is that the STORY aspect of how he did it was weak. Unless you can explain why it makes for a better story to see a character die a heroic death, then no, your point is obviously precisely the opposite of what you claim here. Under your direction, it would have been both less realistic and much less of a stark depiction of the emperor’s character. Why would that improve the story? > [@Harborwolf](#): > > Coldly betrayed my bottom. The deaths reeked of lazy writing, much like the entire prequels. Care to explain? Like I said, for me it was one of the few effective scenes in the movie, which as a whole was less-than-stunning. But I don’t see why _this_ is emblematic of lazy writing. > [@Sweetums](#): > > I still don’t belive this was good storytelling, I think that Lucas bringing in characters from the extended universe just to kill them off was akin to vandalism. I also still don’t belive that this montage was done so much to show the cruelty of the emperor, but to crib from the Godfather. Kill them off, fine, we knwo they had to die, but at least give enought respect to the writers, characters and fans who made them popular. You can think what you want, but the narrative purpose of the scene was clear. If you really don’t believe that, you can try to come up with an argument to support it, but frankly, it’d be akin to arguing that it was a betrayal when the dude in _Green Eggs and Ham_ tries, and likes, the green eggs and ham at the end. In that case, the message was clear: try new things before you declare that you hate them. So if you disagree with the clear message of that story, you’d have to explain why. And in RotS as well, the purpose behind killing off the characters so casually is really quite obvious. How can you say that? It’s an _extremely_ simple scene. I’m sorry you didn’t get it, but you might as well be arguing that the sky is green here, because you’re arguing a point that is so _obviously_ wrong to the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/56 "2005-05-24T17:13:14Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Yes, that is true, and is a much better explanation than **Merijeek** ’s comments about killing little kids counting as hunting down and destroying the Jedi. Vader chopped up a day care, he didn’t track down the elite guardians of order in the galaxy and kill them one by one. However, the impression that I got from Obi-Wan’s comments did not imply a simultaneous murder of Jedi by clone troops, and that’s my complaint. All I can say is that with events taking place over 2 generations, there’s plenty of action that doesn’t take place within one of the episodes. I’m not advocating contorted fanboy logic, but I do think the possibility of Vader personally tracking down and killing Jedi knights would be consistent with what we saw. The empire was trying to lure _someone_ out of hiding with that beacon, and it appears they are out of commision by ANH. Sure, Lucas manipulates these off-screen events in order to reconcile the multiple episodes and fit a vision that might not have been fully formed in 1977. But I don’t see that as a fatal flaw. Corny dialog, and making artistic concessions in favor of merchandising opportunities are much better reasons to criticize Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/57 "2005-05-24T17:31:45Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > Sure, Lucas manipulates these off-screen events in order to reconcile the multiple episodes and fit a vision that might not have been fully formed in 1977. But I don’t see that as a fatal flaw. I wuz robbed, I tells ya! (Yeah, he literally reached into my wallet and took out the $8.50. Twice.) Plus, who knows, perhaps he plans on an Episode 3.5 someday, or a miniseries bridging the gap. > [@](#): > > _Corny dialog, and making artistic concessions in favor of merchandising opportunities are much better reasons to criticize Lucas._ And I’ll join you on the barricades for that. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/58 "2005-05-24T17:44:15Z")
> [@lno](#): > > I wuz robbed, I tells ya! (Yeah, he literally reached into my wallet and took out the $8.50. Twice.) Plus, who knows, perhaps he plans on an Episode 3.5 someday, or a miniseries bridging the gap. And I’ll join you on the barricades for that. Oddly enough, I understand he plans to do just that: a 4 season story arc, made for TV, based on post-RotS events. If and when this happens, he’ll have to find, or resurrect, a Jedi or two and you can bet your left nut that fanboys and fangals will be up in arms if he doesn’t 1) pick their favorite, and 2) do it in a way that is consistent with every line of every Star Wars comic, game, book, and movie ever written or conceived. For example, there are blogs claiming he spoke with the actress who plays the blue Jedi, Aayla, about the project. She’s lying underneath a giant shroom crispier than bacon forgotten on the griddle when RotS closes. I only paid $5 at the matinee. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/59 "2005-05-24T18:11:59Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Uh, forgive me, but _that was the entire point of that scene._ The Jedi _were_ killed like punks, because the clones probably couldn’t have killed them face to face. The idea was to illustrate the tragedy of the murder of the Jedi and the duplicity of Palpatine. It’s one of about three scenes in the movie where the pathos worked, in my opinion - no Lucas-style dialogue to trample all over the fourth wall. I don’t have a dog in this, but I’ll stick my nose in anyway. I think what’s being said, is that the killing could have been done ala the Alamo, or Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, in which the Jedi go down fighting, but still lose because they are simply overwhelmed. Their honour, their skills are nothing against a sea of disposible soldiers, **that just keep coming**. Would it have been so bad to see them swinging against a sea of stormtroopers and then fade to white? The end. As opposed to being sucked punched and shot down like dogs? I don’t know which would be honest to the character, that Palpatine was a sly dog and shot them in the back or that Palpatine was a sly dog and overwhelmed them with an unstoppable army of cannon fodder…that he can replace and keep replacing until **the Jedi, like all his enemies are dead**. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168/60 "2005-05-24T18:19:08Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I think what’s being said, is that the killing could have been done ala the Alamo, or Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, in which the Jedi go down fighting, but still lose because they are simply overwhelmed. Their honour, their skills are nothing against a sea of disposible soldiers, **that just keep coming**. > > Would it have been so bad to see them swinging against a sea of stormtroopers and then fade to white? The end. As opposed to being sucked punched and shot down like dogs? Yeah, that would have been bad. It’s a much less effective statement about Palpatine, and given how bad the stormtroopers have proven to be, over and over and over again, I don’t think anybody would have believed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-dies-like-a-punk-spoiler-and-rant/305168.md?page=4)