# Jedi Ethics (seriously) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734 "2000-03-11T23:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/21 "2000-03-14T00:37:00Z")
Now, I’ve only seen the movies, and don’t really consider any data from the books or comics to be relevant to the **true** Star Trek universe 🙂 However, I will ask: don’t parents have a choice about whether their child is taken to the Academy? I’m sure most would consider it the highest honor attainable, and would gladly consent it. And if the parents consent it, then it is ok. Parents have the right to choose how their children are brought up, how they are educated. As far as the other objections about the amount of power they have…well as someone else said any military or police force will present a similar dilemma. I don’t see what is special about the Jedi in this respect, except that they have such a high standard of ethical training that it is rare that any turn to the dark side. How rare is unclear, but probably less than 1 every thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/22 "2000-03-14T00:49:00Z")
The true Star **Trek** universe?! Please tell me that was an intentional error! ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/23 "2000-03-14T01:19:00Z")
In Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series there is a similar group, all women, who seek out little girls who have the special power in order to train them. In this series, the children have no choice either, any who escape the net are hounded later in life. The politics within the group are Machiavellian to the extreme. We are seeing the Jedi as Lucas wants us to see them. In reality, a good investigative reporter or historian would air a lot of dirty laundry that the Jedi would not be too proud of. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/24 "2000-03-14T02:57:00Z")
Aren’t Jedi Knights allowed to choose whether or not they want to be Knights? Their training certainly will affect their choice, but ultimately it’s theirs to make. As for whether Jedis are a danger to society: if Jedi are outlawed, only outlaws will be Jedis! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/25 "2000-03-14T03:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by mipsman: > \*\*In Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series there is a similar group, all women, who seek out little girls who have the special power in order to train them. In this series, the children have no choice either, any who escape the net are hounded later in life. The politics within the group are Machiavellian to the extreme. We are seeing the Jedi as Lucas wants us to see them. In reality, a good investigative reporter or historian would air a lot of dirty laundry that the Jedi would not be too proud of. \*\* Anybody remember the episode of the new Twilight Zone in which each child of a futuristic society was obliged to undergo some kind of test at puberty in order to enter society? The surprise ending was that at the end it was revealed to be an intelligence test, and any kid with too _high_ an IQ was liquidated. DHR ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/26 "2000-03-14T03:47:00Z")
I **do** remember that episode of _The New Twilight Zone!_ It’s one of the very few episodes I **have** seen! And regarding light sabers “only” being formidable in the hands of a Jedi: Let us not forget that a light saber can slice right through an AT-AT’s armor. Even high-power emplaced blaster cannons can’t do that! ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/27 "2000-03-14T03:54:00Z")
Star Trek, Star Wars, what’s the diff…ugh…ggg…argg! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/28 "2000-03-14T03:58:00Z")
By the way, what is a “Sith lord” (aside from being an inadequately explained plot convention)? Are they supposed to be specialists in the “dark side”, or some kind of anti-Jedi? DHR ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/29 "2000-03-14T04:20:00Z")
Tracer… I swear I am clued yet I make this mistake - the cardinal mistake. Maybe it is a fortelling, maybe it tells you something about star warsiim…yet maybe it tells you something about star trekiism (which was always the more philosophical, though I appreciatiate it less). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/30 "2000-03-14T04:52:00Z")
First, I want to admit that I am one of the 7 people in the western world who has not seen the new Star Wars. However, I wanted to point out that there are historical precedents for the sort of system you are describing. For about 400 years the Ottoman turks practiced what they called the _devshirme_. This was the practice of culling likely looking boys from the Christian half of the empire (according to Muslim law, one cannot enslave fellow Muslims.) These boys, 9-11 years old, were farmed out to Turkish families for a few years to be converted to Islam (You can convert slaves after the fact and they stay slaves) and to learn Turkish. Then they were divided into two groups. The largest group were the Janesseris, an elite fighting force. The other, smaller group, made up of the _creme de la creme_, were sent to the palace school for training. Out of this school came the administators of the empire–the govenors, prime ministers. ambasadors, scribes. The idea behind this–and it worked beautifully–was to provide the ruling dynasty (House of Osman) with a goverment that had no outside means of support, and no outside ties of loyalty. Western monarchs had constant problems with old, powerful families who had thier own lands and own power base. The Ottomans did their best to nip that in the bud. Interestingly enough, this system didn’t work forever. As several people have suggested might happen with the Jedi, the elite fighting force of the Janisseris eventually grew to large to be easily controled, and by the declining days of the Empire (19th century) were removing and replacing emporers almost at will. My point, finally, was that when the _devshirme_ was introduced parents tended to bribe the child-collecters to ignore their boy. However, eventually parents began to bribe the officials to choose thier child, because they realized that the devshirme was a fantastic oppertunity. In regards to Jedis, my question is, would it not be immoral for a parent **not** to let thier child go and thus deny that child such fantastic opputunities out of selfish love/attachment? ---
**Author:** ![ubermax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f14d63/32.png) [@ubermax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ubermax)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/31 "2000-03-14T07:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly: > \*\*By the way, what is a “Sith lord” (aside from being an inadequately explained plot convention)? Are they supposed to be specialists in the “dark side”, or some kind of anti-Jedi? > > DHR\*\* The Sith were a group of dark side sorcerers whose tradition was not related to the Jedi or their teachings. There used to be armies of them, but the Jedis wiped them out in a huge conflict several thousand years ago. Since large numbers of them are easily noticed by the Jedi, the Sith are now represented only by a Master and his Apprentice. Eventually the Apprentice covets the power of the Master (nature of the dark side and all), offs him, and so becomes the Master. He then takes an Apprentice and the whole vicious cycle begins again. Hey, no one said this was smart, if they knew what was good for them they never would have gone screwing around with evil magic. * * * “Don’t jive me, turkey!” –John Shaft ---
**Author:** ![ubermax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f14d63/32.png) [@ubermax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ubermax)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/32 "2000-03-14T07:58:00Z")
A lot of people in this forum seem to be under the impression that, left unchecked, the Jedi will run roughshod over the Galaxy and generally become the ruling power. While there is ample evidence of this in the real world, and good reason for us not to blindly trust military/police authority, what we are dealing with here is a FANTASY WORLD. The Jedi have existed in their current form for tens of thousands of years. Don’t you think they would have made their move a long time ago? And as for whether or not it is ethical to place children in the academy without their consent, I hate to tell you, but parents have been making choices about their children’s religious affiliation for thousands of years. I know I certainly didn’t ask for mine. At least the Jedi religion provides you with actual miracles that one can witness, scientifically measure and even recreate. Besides which, the Jedi are almost universally looked up to and beloved. If someone had decided to give you a full ride scholarship to The Rich-&-Famous-Movie-Star Academy when you were a kid, would you be complaining about it now? * * * “Don’t jive me, turkey!” –John Shaft ---
**Author:** ![Erratum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Erratum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erratum)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/33 "2000-03-14T16:29:00Z")
“_The Jedi have existed in their current form for tens of thousands of years. Don’t you think they would have made their move a long time ago?_” The prospectus clearly says “past performance is no guarantee of future success” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2000, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/34 "2000-03-15T02:01:00Z")
What happens if a Jedi apprentice goes through the training, gains enough control over the Force to become a Jedi Knight, and then later QUITS the order? Do the Jedi hunt down and kill their defectors? If not, how do they control “rogue” Jedi? I don’t mean former Jedi who have been out-and-out seduced by the Dark Side of the Force [TM], I mean Jedi who are taking all those superhuman powers and striking out on their own, unaccountable to the Jedi order or any other authority. The Jedi Council can’t just “erase” the training or “neutralize” the rogue’s midi-chlorians, can they? * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![ubermax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f14d63/32.png) [@ubermax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ubermax)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/35 "2000-03-16T08:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by StrTrkr777: > **But the children are taken away from parents and taught to believe a certain way. > Jeffery** I knew there was something about this that bothered me. I think you’re jumping to an awfully shaky conclusion here. I don’t remember anyone saying, in movies or other media, that prospective Jedis were taken from their families. After all, Qui-Gon tried hard to get Anakin’s mother freed along with him. It seems like it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the Jedi to go around breaking up families. * * * “Don’t jive me, turkey!” –John Shaft ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734/36 "2000-03-16T09:00:00Z")
I think it would be more akin to mentat training in _Dune_. It’s revealed to the adolescent Paul Atreides that, without his knowledge, he’s been undergoing this subtle and advanced mental training since he was a tot. There comes a point, however, where the student must make a conscious choice of whether to continue with the training. I know this is a Star Wars/Star Trek thread, so I hope y’all don’t mind if I make a brief reference to some _real_ science fiction. DHR [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jedi-ethics-seriously/17734.md?page=1)