# Jeez, can't we just save ourselves some trouble and just Ban Hitler apologists/deniers? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238 "2012-05-08T02:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/81 "2012-05-08T23:21:16Z")
“Round up the usual suspects” would probably not be a way to run a message board founded on “fighting ignorance.” **GermanicPride** got shitcanned not in a hurry but only after he crossed the line into calling names, etc. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/82 "2012-05-08T23:43:44Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > “Round up the usual suspects” would probably not be a way to run a message board founded on “fighting ignorance.” Amen, Brother! Can I suck up, or what? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/83 "2012-05-09T00:22:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > True. If you really want, use the classic fallback of “he was being a jerk” and we need fuckall else. > > ~shrugs~ > I declare it so by fiat. OK. Thanks for being thy guy who actually made a concrete proposal. I still don’t think it would accomplish what the OP intends, but it is a proposal rather than just an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/84 "2012-05-09T00:23:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why though? Let’s pretend that someone actually comes in and, instead of being all coy like usual just comes right out and says ‘I’m a Nazi’. So what? Why should that be automatic grounds to ban them? It’s the content of their posts that matters, not their self applied label. I agree. We should ban a Nazi jerk for being a jerk. But if we were to get a hypothetical polite well-mannered Nazi - maybe Speer or Ribbentrop - they’d be entitled to present their own unique point of view just like anyone else. And to have that point of view called into question. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/85 "2012-05-09T00:50:04Z")
They’re the bacterial infection of the digital society. Some times an abbreviated infestation does the host a long-term good. Like an actual medical clinic, the hallmark of a message board’s health isn’t necessarily the health of its’ constituents or patients, but the robustness, speed and accuracy of the diagnosis and response that follows. I think we do OK. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/86 "2012-05-09T01:49:51Z")
As XT noted, it is useful to have a SDMB smackdown of Holocaust Deniers available via your preferred search engine. Same goes for any other delusional idea. Sure, these guys are a nuisance. But insta-banning them won’t make them or their ideas go away. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/87 "2012-05-09T01:56:03Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > So… can I argue that there was no Holocaust as long as I make it clear I’m not defending the Nazis? > > Can I argue the Holocaust was the moral equivalent of the bombing of Dresden and/or Hiroshima? > > Can I argue that the Nazis would have been remembered as “just another enemy” if not for the Holocaust? > > If I post a strategy by which the Germans would have won the Eastern Front, forcing a negotiated settlement with Great Britain and eventually winning World war II does that make me a “supporter of Nazism?” Yes. Yes. Yes. No. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/88 "2012-05-09T02:10:40Z")
In all fairness, I don’t see a need for a rule banning things like Neo-Nazism or Holocaust denial or anything like that, either. Just let them post here. Dumbass will spew their Dumbass nonsense, a few Dopers will try to honestly debate with Dumbass before realizing they’re trying to reason Dumbass out of a position that he didn’t reason himself into, Dumbass will post his rebuttals thus revealing his true Dumbassery, the whole thing will turn into one big game of PALATR, thus setting off Dumbass to the point that he posts something that clearly does break the rules of the SDMB or anywhere that has any kind of TOS at all, and ends up getting shown the door. Works every time. When you consider that the whole process I just described rarely takes more than a week to complete, it doesn’t seem like we’re losing that much. Dumbass comes and leaves without convincing anyone else he’s right, Dumbass is still convinced he’s right despite the well-intentioned Dopers who think a few posts on a message board regardless of how flawless their logic is can override the Voices from Mars inside Dumbass’ head, the lurkers reading the thread will either like the fireworks for the impressive debate and become members who post opinions that _have_ some level of sanity or like the fireworks for the cheap lulz before heading back to wherever they were before, the Dopers themselves return to life as normal until Dumbass 2: Electric Boogaloo shows up turning Dopers into a proverbial Roland Deschain. Rinse and repeat. Banning the countless Dumbasses on sight may be a better way of improving the level of discourse on the SDMB, but my idea is a lot more fun and takes only a week longer to achieve the exact same result. If you really want to strip evil of all power, don’t censor it, don’t oppose it, don’t ignore it, but just laugh at it. tl;dr: Give the morons enough rope to hang themselves with. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/89 "2012-05-09T02:17:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Anybody who self-identifies as a Nazi, Neo-Nazi or National Socialist, or supporter of Nazism, Neo-Nazism or National Socialism will instantly be banned.” Didn’t 7% of the recent Greece voters vote for some National Socialist Party? Should they all be banned if they came in to debate the elections? Or only deniers of the Holocaust that also identify as one of your grouping? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/90 "2012-05-09T02:32:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This type also harps on the fact that many of the concentration camp prisoners died of disease and malnutrition instead of by poison gas. I guess we should be offended because they think that will matter to anybody. Fact is millions where gassed, shot, hung, decapitated, starved the Nazi regime was horrible with no defense, no way to “open” someones eyes to there better side, they had none. What they bring that argument you mention up for, is to compare our treatment after victory to the Nazis during the reign.\* > **[Food in occupied Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_food_policy_in_occupied_Germany)** > > American food policy in occupied Germany refers to the food supply policies enacted by the U.S., and to some extent its Allies, in the western occupation zones of Germany in the first two years of the ten-year postwar occupation of Western Germany following World War II. > Shortly before the outbreak of World War II, the German government instituted rationing which resulted in the restricted availability of food. Occasional shortages of food occurred during the war; thus, a black market develope... - Which I am not to proud of our countrymen for doing myself but it is apples to oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/91 "2012-05-09T03:00:11Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > As XT noted, it is useful to have a SDMB smackdown of Holocaust Deniers available via your preferred search engine. Same goes for any other delusional idea. Sure, these guys are a nuisance. But insta-banning them won’t make them or their ideas go away. It turns out thoughtful, detailed and well-reasoned point-by-point refutations won’t, either. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/92 "2012-05-09T03:01:23Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > Didn’t 7% of the recent Greece voters vote for some National Socialist Party? Should they all be banned if they came in to debate the elections? Or only deniers of the Holocaust that also identify as one of your grouping? As an aside, I wonder if in Germany, where the Nazis \*\*are \*\*banned, this has not made them even more opposed to bail out the Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/93 "2012-05-09T03:06:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The threads aren’t really for the apologist or CT nutter. In all the years I’ve been here I’ve never seen one of these true believers learn a gods damned thing in one of these threads. Generally, they post for a while, and are overwhelmed by the smackdown being put on the top of their bony little heads, and eventually slink off back to whatever rock they crawled out from. No, the purpose of these threads is for the lurkers…and, also, for the folks who will be doing a Google or Bing search in the future, will see the thread, will be on the fence or not really know much about it, will open the thread and read through it and see how ridiculous the denier or CT nutter or vaxer or whatever looks and is made to look, and will come out of it knowing a little more about the tactics to use when combating one of these idiots. I think the single biggest thing that has helped damp down the Truthers has been debunking articles and shows on popular cable channels, shown over and over again…and boards like ours, who have consistently allowed these fools in and given them their chance to present their pitiful evidence, and then smacking them down and clearly making them flee with their tails firmly tucked between their legs. > [@MJinks](#): > > Occasionally there is something to be learned from these threads though. His point about the number of murdered at Auschwitz and the rebuttals by other posters certainly taught me something. If I’d met a holocaust denier in person I wouldn’t have known how to refute that point, now I do. Other people might have heard that claim and not known the truth behind it. Deniers or conspiracy theorists occasionally quote ‘facts’ that sound reasonable or make sense and you can always rely on SDMB posters to strain out the truth while leaving the bullshit behind. It wont make the OP change their mind but it might educate those on the sidelines. I think this is really the best rationale for not banning these guys outright. We’re not so much providing them with with a venue for their idiotic ideas, but providing a place where their nonsense can be thoroughly and systematically shredded. Trying to argue their views here has to be one of the most counterproductive things these clowns can do. They aren’t going to find a receptive audience or any new recruits on this site. Instead they waste their time futilely trying to defend their positions, when that time could more productively be spent many other places in the internet. And these threads provide ammunition for attacking their views elsewhere. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In any case, the subject is quite obviously _not_ banned for debate - we just haven’t yet had a holocaust denier who wasn’t also a jerk. It sort of comes with the territory, I think - Holocaust deniers are pretty much automatically also jerks. In my experience, it doesn’t take too long trying to defend a loosing argument before they get frustrated and start insulting other posters and engage in hate speech. And then we ban them for cause. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/94 "2012-05-09T03:24:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It turns out thoughtful, detailed and well-reasoned point-by-point refutations won’t, either. As has been pointed out upthread, there is value in having a dearth of information on the net for those on the fence or just a place that comes up on a search that shows intelligent refutations of these idiots. Count me in with **XT**. On preview: and **Colibri**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/95 "2012-05-09T03:44:04Z")
Well… I do find that argument somewhat persuasive, but the problem is there are already excellent resources on the 'net. Most (all?) of us who posted those refutations in the GD thread just linked to Nizkor. I’m not sold on the idea that we really need more than Nizkor, but I suppose that our posting cites from it does show a “Denier debunking in the wild”. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/96 "2012-05-09T04:05:28Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > As has been pointed out upthread, there is value in having a **dearth** of information on the net for those on the fence or just a place that comes up on a search that shows intelligent refutations of these idiots. Emphasis mine. That word; i do not think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/97 "2012-05-09T04:18:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That word; i do not think it means what you think it means. What, you think by adding the SDMB to the refutations there would then be a preponderance? A veritable plethora? Nah, there would still be [an inadequate supply](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dearth). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/98 "2012-05-09T04:29:21Z")
It seemed to me that you were arguing that there would be value in having sufficient information. If you were, in fact, arguing that there is value in having an inadequate supply of information, then it’s your logic rather than your grammar and usage that i would take issue with. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/99 "2012-05-09T05:33:11Z")
Nevermind. . ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238/100 "2012-05-09T08:38:59Z")
But… having them around as chew toys is **fun**. We can stroke our ego, be all high and mighty, even the worst of us can stand on top of the pile-on and say “truly, I am a better person than this poster.” And then ban them when we tire of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeez-cant-we-just-save-ourselves-some-trouble-and-just-ban-hitler-apologists-deniers/621238.md?page=6)