Jeffords' Defection: Traitorous or Heroic?

Great Debates
41

What do you think would have happened, Scylla, if Jeffords had taken the deal and ended up on a prestigious committee or two?

Here’s what I think would happen: three months from now, he’d be rising to make a moral objection to something he thought was horrible. The eleven-odd faces on that committee with him would blink at him before the chairman said, “OK then. The measure passes with one dissent from the esteemed Senator from Vermont.”

Hardly a way to effect positive change in your environment, I’d say …

Bribery? Don’t be ridiculous. No bribes were necessary. Jeffords’ decision was clearly a soberly made, well-informed action of conscience. Bless 'im. sniff

42

How Sen. Jeffords votes is pretty much irrelevant. The important point is that the party line division between the GOP and the DEMS is 49 to 50, with one lone Independent. The party split gives the Dems the chair of committees and, as long as party discipline can be maintained, the power to control what legislation get out of committee for a vote by the whole Senate. In effect this gives the Dem leadership in the Senate a pre-veto on almost every thing. The real fun will come if the Dems can turn their narrow advantage from the power to prevent things from happening into the power to make things happen. If so, the Senate can pass all sorts of stuff offensive to the conservative majority in the House with all confidence that the House will defeat it or, if it gets past the House, that George will veto it. This is a great opportunity to:

  1. Embarrass the House GOP and the Pres. by forcing one or the other to reject moderate measures that might well be supported by a large fraction of the voters, for instance a patients bill of rights that preserves the power to take a HMO to court for withholding or unreasonably delaying treatment.
  2. Force President Bush to start operating from the middle.
  3. See just how sincere GOP appeals to civility and bipartisan agreement are.
  4. Give Jessie Helms a heart attack right on the floor of the Senate, and maybe wake up poor old Sen. Thurmond.

This is going to be fun. I expect a flood of vitriol to match anything that has been seen in recent years and which will continue until the nation has to deal with a real crisis.

43

**

Sigh. Don’t you listen? If he has the threat of leaving hanging over their head than they couldn’t pull that shit. It’s a card he could play on a few key issues that are important to him and other moderate Republicans.

**
[/quote]
Bribery? Don’t be ridiculous. No bribes were necessary. Jeffords’ decision was clearly a soberly made, well-informed action of conscience. Bless 'im. sniff **
[/QUOTE]

Ahh yes, the old “my-party-is-too-ambitious-argument.” Apparently he’s only wants to be an usuccessful Republican.

That was the excuse Brutus used to kill Caesar. It was bullshit then, too.

His gripes were vague. I think he knew Bush was running for President back in November when he campaigned as a Republican. There really is no sound reason for his defection at such a key time when it gives such a tremendous advantage to the opposition.

Again, if he really wanted to make a difference, and if he really felt that the Republican party was off course, he could have used the threat of defection, and the alliance of other moderate Republicans to create significant leverage without totally undermining his party.

This is the one key time that he had to fuck his party over, and he used it.

“A well informed act of conscience.” Bahh! Do your rose colored glasses come with blinders?

I suppose you think this is just like Return of the Jedi where Darth Vader suddenly coverts from the Dark Side.

Your naivete is utterly astounding.

Go read Brutus’ speech in Julius Caesar.

This is nothing new. It’s political manuevering for personal advantage.

44

What tells the most, is what was left out of Jefford’s little speech.

There is no mention of meeting with Republican leaders, or Bush, and attempting to commiserate or work out a compromise.

Now if you were in a party for thirty years, and you didn’t liike the direction it was going in, don’t you think it would be reasonable to bring your thoughts to the party leadership and say, "I’m thinking of leaving because I disagree with this, this, and this. I know that my leaving at this time would cause my party great political damage, and I don’t want to do that, but I feel strongly enough about these issues that I will, if we can’t work something out. Why don’t we at least sit down before I do this and try to see if there is a way that we can compromise, so that I can stay and feel good about these important issues.**

If he had done that, party leadership would have no choice but to compromise to some degree on his issues.

But, he didn’t do it. He makes no mention of trying to work things out. In fact he mentions no specific instances that have caused him to change, just vague generalities about how the party “isn’t the same.” The change has been an open secret for some time.

It’s not the issues. It was a deal.

Watch. Nothing too obvious will happen. He won’t get special treatment from the Democrats. He’ll disappear into political limbo for a while, and vote along both Dem and Rep lines and seem independant on votes that aren’t close or important. A year from now, when the dust has settled he’ll switch parties, and run for Governor. The Governor will run for Jefford’s seat. The Dems maintain control of Vermon’t governorship, and pick up a Senate seat.

It’s a great deal for both the Dems and Jeffords, and the timing could not be more perfect.

The deal itself doesn’t piss me off. It’s a smart one. What pisses me off is the stupidity of knee jerk Democrats who don’t recognize a spade for a spade, and vitriol slinging Republicans who brand him a traitor.

It’s a great move by the Dems and Jeffords and I’m cynical enough to appreciate it.

I’m absolutely flabbergasted at people who accept this at face value.

I’m curious to see what the Republicans do next. I suspect that there is another side to this we haven’t seen yet, because it’s a gutsy and scarily blatant move for the Dems, like they’re trying to head something off. I wonder what.

45

Hardly. Jeffords was spat upon by his party. He has been dragged through the mud by the likes of Scylla and every other armchair politician out there who seem to think that Bush is the second coming of Jesus, and every conservative leaning publication I’ve seen. He’s been called the “ultimate skunk,” been compared to Benedict Arnold, and had been essentially ignored by the far right for years, all the while voting in a more Democrat than Republican style. The dems have offered him a job, respect, and power, and seem to be quite ready to follow through on their promises.

And you expect him to vote Republican fairly often? HA!

46

Only if the Republican leadership is capable of listening, unfortunately they arent.

from the following link
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A67682-2001May23.html

Why spend the next 5 1/2 years living with enemies and watching your back? Especially when there are more people who think and vote like you on the other side of the aisle? I think this is the first of a small flood of moderates who abandon the GOP because it just doesn’t represent us anymore.

Scylla, are you drunk? This is absolutely the best possible time for him to jump ship. There’s a lot of inertia about party membership. A lot of friendships and contacts and working relationships that you have to abandon when you switch. If you can make the switch when you are in a position to provide something of value to the other party, then they will make the transition MUCH easier.

His gripes were vague on purpose. He’s not leaving Washington, so there’s nothing to be gained by airing his grievances. The grown ups in the GOP (all 4 of them) would only think less of him if he verbally trashed his former party instead of just leaving.

This has got to be the dumbest thing of all the dumb things you’ve said in this thread. The leaders of his party had him completely marginalized. They were going around him in his own committee. Staying would only have left him in a position of no power for the rest of his term.

No Scylla, he did it to fuck over you personally. :rolleyes:

You’re pushing the pit here dude. You don’t want to look like a sore loser.

tj

p.s. How do I feel about the news?
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

47

Well, if wanted to be a Democrat, he’d have become a Democrat. I’d imagine that his principles haven’t drastically changed, and that the Democrats are getting enough (committee chairs, etc.) that they aren’t also getting party loyalty in the deal.

48

I’m wryly amused by the apparent assumption in so many of the people condemning Jeffords for his “treason to the Republican conservative cause” and so forth that his decision could only be simple opportunism, even bribe-taking. There seems to be an understanding among many of those folks that any view that disagrees with theirs is by definition without principle, and can therefore be demonized by the self-described “principled ones”. What the hey, might as well lump them all together and label them with the curse word “Liberals” - it’s easier than trying to understand the world, right?

Come on, people, you can do better than that.

49

Which are precisely the same thing. :smiley:

50

So what do we make of a Weekly Standard article (sadly not online) from May 14th where there were whisperings of GOP retaliation against Jeffords by killing the New England dairy compact. It’s been referenced in many other articles about Jeffords.

Or we could talk about the slights given to John McCain, perennial arch-nemesis of George W. Bush.

51

Pure conjecture. This may be the case, but: it may the case that Jeffords’ decision was the culmination of months or years of soul-searching, or it may be the case that his was a spiteful decision timed to hurt President Bush and other conservative Republicans that he felt had done him wrong.

I really don’t know, but I would guess that it’s some combination of the three (perhaps with the “spite” factor being most salient, IMO).

In the meantime, I’m glad he did it. Anything that will moderate Bush’s appointments to the Judiciary is cool with me.

52

Kudos to Scylla for making a falsifiable prediction, that Jeffords will run for Governor in 2002.

What I don’t get here is the implicit argument that this was an anti-democratic move. The party label is essentially a signal of one’s voting record. My sense is that Vermonters are pretty familiar with Jefford’s record and ideology and that they furthermore are comfortable with an independent. I don’t see how the state’s interests have been compromised; if anything they have been advanced.

I’d even assert that Vermonters, taken as a whole, would prefer a Senate presided by Democrats over a Senate presided by Republicans.

Bottom line: when the Senate is split 50-50 and the President governs from the center of the Republican party, a centrist revolt shouldn’t be particularly surprising. Nor is it especially non-democratic. I guess Scylla’s point is that Jefford’s bolting from the Republican party shouldn’t be seen as wholly an act of political courage or conscience. My point is that it isn’t especially undemocratic either.

53

All I know is that Republicans who are whining about no longer “controlling” the Senate (Jeffords’ move just goes to show that they didn’t really control it as well as they thought) and Democrats who are spooging their pants at the thought of finally being able to block GOP legislation have a very wrong point of view about all of this.

54

The rights, wrongs, causes and consequences of this are, of course, none of my bees wax but

The scenario of a conservative President of the capitalist model U.S.A. losing control of the Senate over the price of subsidised milk is exquisite irony indeed.

55

Glad to see you back Stoid…

You all know I had to chime in on this one vehement Bush hater that I am…

This defection does change things a little. Sure enough it doesn’t change things so dramatically when it comes to a Senate vote, but committee is a different story. I happened to watch on CSPAN last week as Orin Hatch rammed through the nomination of Ted Olson. The man was absolutely rude to Patrick Lehey and Russ Feingold. I wanted to reach into the TV a slap Lehey. Wake up old man! Just because you are a Democrat does not mean you have to be a door mat! You can hold strong without sounding like one of them. (I call them the mean and nasty party now. Not to mention the Grand Hypocracy Party.) But then…a little bit of dignity and courage came in the form of Russ Feingold. He speaks up and says no Mr. Chairman I’d like to make a statement before we vote. So Russ starts to speak, does Hatch behave like a decent civilized man, a professional. No he interrupts Feingold with a hurry up. Feingold sticks to his guns. Tells the rude little fucker that he intends to finish his statement and it will not take that long.

So there… that’s what you get when you get to be head of a committee. You get to set the adgenda. You get to decide when and if something will remain in committee and when you vote. You have the power to sit there and be rude to your collegues or be professional and respectful. Somehow I don’t think any other senator, at least on that, committee (I’m not sure about Ted Kennedey’s though, give em hell Ted!)has to worry about being cut off or treated rudely by the new chairman. Patrick Lehey is a soft spoken, civilized man. And much to my delight, I’m hoping that we won’t be passing anymore lying, whoring for Richard Mellon Scaife, right wing nut jobs through that committee quite so easily anymore either.

The posters on this thread just prove to me what I have been learniing lately about the Republican party, it’s ideology, and it’s supporters. It is made up of a diverse set of people and ideas. But for the most part has gone the way of corporate whoredom, right wing self righteousness, and lying self serving theives. That isn’t ideology, it’s rabid junk yard dog pack mentality. They’ve even turned on their own members like a sick dog that bites it’s own master. Now Jim Jeffords, a man who’s record shows none of the above, must endure the ire of people without the courage or conscience to even be allowed to lick his shoes.

Advice to the Republicans…people did not like you when you foamed at the mouth for 8 years over Clinton, used every dollar that you could get your hands on, and even lied to discredit him. People will certainly not like you for doing the same thing to one of your own. Let this man walk away. Take the same advice you’ve all been giving the Dems, “move on”. It will not serve your party well to dwell on this issue long. You’ll be showing your hand again. Showing yourselves as the petty, spiteful, authoritarian, assholes that so many of you are. Remember there is still 2002, and we can certainly narrow your margin just a little more.

Because despite what I’ve learned about politics this past year there is still something that I firmly believe; the average American citizen is not quite so wrapped up in their own self interest. For the most part we are decent, civic minded, centerists, nor are we ignorant, just uninformed. When provided the truth, Americans are capable of making good decisions. I also believe that most of us hold dear and better display the so called “values” that you often pervert. We will prevail because this is our country and we still believe in it.

Needs2know

56

I don’t have the kind of mind that can easily grasp the power plays that are a staple of politics. But I like Jim Jeffords. I voted for him. The Northeast Dairy Compact is an extremely hot issue here in Vermont. I have absolutely no doubt that any threat to that alone would be enough to induce him to switch his affiliation, no bribery needed. There is a stir about the whole thing here in Montpelier, but most the bad feedback that I’ve seen personally has been from out of state. It’s likely that that is because I work in the Tourism office, so that’s all I see, but on the street people seem to be either positive or neutral about it from my observations. Of course, that could just be where I hang out.

The two largest Vermont newspapers have a lot to say about it. The Burlington Free Press and the Times Argus both have some very interesting articles today on the story.

57

Scylla, dear fellow, you really must take it easy. Sit down here next to me and I’ll brew you up a nice cup of herbal tea. This too will pass, goes around comes around. Let me offer the same advice you were kind enough to pass along to me, which I return in the same spirit as given:

“Get over it”

58

Wooly – I share your amusement.

One picky point (and I’m not actually certain) is that the milk program isn’t so much a subsidy as it is a method of keeping the price** up** for the benfit of the dairy industry (and to the detriment of the children.)

59

It’s true that the NE Dairy compact deals with price regulation to ensure that dairy farmers can continue to make their living in the states that it covers.

60

elucidator:

::Sigh::

There’s nothing really to get over here. As I said, the move doesn’t bother me.

It’s the wide-eyed gullible acceptance of this “act of conscience” at face value that I find mind-numbingly naive.