# Jehova's Witnesses and Jesus Christ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675 "2015-03-10T04:51:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/21 "2015-04-23T05:10:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You are correct; my phrasing was wrong. The more traditional idea is that Jesus existed all along, as long as God existed. Not “since the creation” but “since before the creation.” I apologize for sloppy phrasing. Actually, Jesus existing since the Creation is the doctrine of Arianism (not Aryanism _L_), which was repeated by Charles Taze Russell & his followers, both JWs & Bible Students. It’s also taught by the Concordant Bible folks. Welcome back, raindog! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/22 "2015-04-23T06:36:14Z")
If Arianism involves Jesus being created at the Creation, what’s the name of the idea that Jesus was created at his begetting? i.e., no “pre-existence” at all? I had thought that was what Arianism involved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/23 "2015-04-23T11:21:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If Arianism involves Jesus being created at the Creation, what’s the name of the idea that Jesus was created at his begetting? Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/24 "2015-04-23T12:43:42Z")
_snerk_ ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/25 "2015-04-23T17:33:53Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Hello > I would point out first that “mainstream” thoughts on all kinds of things proved to be way way wrong. Modernity has many times caused society to scratch it’s collective head and said “we used to believe that?” I would also point out that the rejection of the Trinity goes way back. (Arynism?) JWs hardly invented it. > > The rejection of the Trinity goes much further than the fact it’s not even hinted at in the OT or NT. The bible [figuratively] mocks the Trinity. Just as the concept of a burning hell has more to do with Dante, the concept of a Triune god goes back millennium; before Jesus. > > Yet this pagan concept is rolled up into Christianity to the point that history, and he ignorance engenders, has imputed legitimacy to a vacant idea. I’ve asked rhetorically more than once “does your belief in the Trinity proceed from the texts”, or “Does your belief precede the texts?” In other words, would a person unfamiliar with the Trinity come to a Trinitarian conclusion? I submit vehemently no. A good example that has been proffered on this board more than once is in early Genesis where God says, “let us…” Does that even implicitly or explicitly support the Trinity? No! It simply says wasn’t alone; which doesn’t make sense to you only if you believe Jesus was created AFTER man. Or…it makes sense if you ALREADY believe in the Trinity and you’re looking for texts to support. (Ftr I was raised Trinitarian) > > A great text is where Jesus says “the Father is greater than I”; but there are hundreds of texts (hundreds!) that explicitly show:1) Jesus was a different person, 2) there were things he didn’t know (but his Father did) 3) he had the capacity for a different will 4) he had the capacity (though he didn’t) to defy his Father 5) his Father was greater 6) he prayed to his Father 7) he never once (never once) directed his followers to pray to him but rather his Father 8) he only referred to himself as the Son, not God 9) he always clearly identified himself as subservient and inferior (always) > > Who Jesus could not be one fragment clearer. Not one. He is the Son of God. He’s just who he says he is. > > I submit its only the insanity of the Trinity belief that has us even asking the question for Jesus Et al make it clear from the giddy up. > > (Hello gang) I’d freely acknowledge I come to the texts with Trinitarian presuppositions. Partly because that’s the general direction in which Christianity has evolved and I do tip my hat a bit to tradition. but more importantly because, like Swinburne and to some extent John of Damascus, I think you can make good arguments for the Trinity based on reason alone, without recourse to scripture. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/26 "2015-04-23T17:35:07Z")
Raindog, Also, what do you make of the references in John’s Gospel equating Jesus with God? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/27 "2015-04-23T19:20:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’d freely acknowledge I come to the texts with Trinitarian presuppositions. Partly because that’s the general direction in which Christianity has evolved and I do tip my hat a bit to tradition. but more importantly because, like Swinburne and to some extent John of Damascus, I think you can make good arguments for the Trinity based on reason alone, without recourse to scripture. Thoughtful comment and I appreciate that. JWs (and I’ve become what JWs call “inactive” or what you would call non- practicing) JWs place no value on outside sources of human reasonings. One, of course, is they place a great and solitary premium on the bible. They’re what a constitutional scholar would call a “strict construction.” In their view, if it was wrong and pagan 1800 years ago, is wrong today. They give tradition no quarter. Secondly they’re really really good historians. They know not just the history, tradition and argument for the Trinity, they know the secular history as well. So to quote Monty Python then, “it’s right out.” Thirdly, the argument against the Trinity in the bible, in their mind (and mine also) is that the bible isn’t compelling its overwhelming. So.for the same reasons they reject Christmas etc, they reject the Trinity as pagan and non-biblical. Hey Friar Ted. Good to see you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/28 "2015-04-23T19:22:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Judaism? Nah, to jews, you’ve not beggetted until you’ve graduated from medical school. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/29 "2015-04-23T19:37:25Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Raindog, > > Also, what do you make of the references in John’s Gospel equating Jesus with God? I’m packing to move and I’m posting from an iPhone. My bibles, concordances etc are packed up. The text most often cited is John 1:1 and would need it’s own thread. There’s maybe a half a dozen posters who could tackle that thoughtfully. The gist of it however, is one of translation and the indefinite article. The bible refers to a wooden structure as a god, a belly (through gluttony) and other things as A god. JWs make a compelling case that the translation is incorrect and has a Trinitarian bias. Jesus is God or he is a god. As I said, that’s a great discussion but I’m not sure we could have that discussion and keep the banshees at bay. I know of no other texts that specifically call him the Capital G God, and JWs maintain he isn’t called that there either. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/30 "2015-04-23T19:45:48Z")
Revenant Threshold, Friar Ted, it’s really good to see you. Polycarp still around? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/31 "2015-04-23T19:50:12Z")
Just wanted to say welcome back to **Raindog**. I hope to see you post in other threads. **Polycarp** died about a year ago IIRC. The world is a poorer place without him. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/32 "2015-04-23T20:09:31Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Polycarp** died about a year ago IIRC. The world is a poorer place without him. There’s no debate about _that_. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/33 "2015-04-23T21:52:18Z")
Hey DocCathode. It’s nice to see you. It may be a few weeks before I’m fully back. I enjoyed your posts and looking forward to chatting with you again. I’m quite sad about Polycarp. He was a giant here. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/34 "2015-04-24T02:24:52Z")
Here’s a follow-up question: I understand that Muslims, like Christians, believe Jesus Christ will come again; this individual is far more supernatural than us regular mortals, according to the Qur’an. What do Muslims believe Jesus is? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/35 "2015-04-24T03:33:55Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Polycarp still around? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/36 "2015-04-24T03:39:04Z")
Wow, turns out I totally misunderstood the basis of the Jehovah’s Witness faith. I thought it meant that if God needed an alibi for last Friday, you were supposed to say he was at your place. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/37 "2015-04-24T03:43:28Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Just wanted to say welcome back to **Raindog**. I hope to see you post in other threads. > > **Polycarp** died about a year ago IIRC. The world is a poorer place without him. Well, damn. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/38 "2015-04-24T04:23:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Wow, turns out I totally misunderstood the basis of the Jehovah’s Witness faith. > > I thought it meant that if God needed an alibi for last Friday, you were supposed to say he was at your place. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675/39 "2015-04-24T16:23:56Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Here’s a follow-up question: > > I understand that Muslims, like Christians, believe Jesus Christ will come again; this individual is far more supernatural than us regular mortals, according to the Qur’an. > > What do Muslims believe Jesus is? the virgin-born, personally sinless, servant & prophet of Allah, but not the Son of Allah or in any way sharing the same Divine nature as Allah. There is debate as to if Jesus was crucified & died or if Allah deceived Jesus’s enemies into thinking they had killed him. At any rate, Jesus was raised to Allah & will return to judge both the Jews who rejected him and the Christians who idolized him, and to witness to the world the truth of Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jehovas-witnesses-and-jesus-christ/714675.md?page=1)