# Jeremy Corbyn is still a disaster **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 29, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239 "2016-09-29T21:13:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/101 "2017-02-25T08:09:05Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > This trouble for Labour doesn’t seem likely to end soon either as Corbyn has near-fanatical support among a large section of the grassroots whom he is nearly a messianic figure sent to deliver them from the yoke the Tories and Blairites. Perhaps even worse is that it is questionable if Labour even have someone who can do a better job than Corbyn. They need someone who is very much like Tony Blair, but who can convince people he/she is nothing like Tony Blair. I don’t think this is accurate. Blair’s governments did outstanding work in a number of areas perhaps most especially education and the NHS - really strong work from which we all still benefit from today. He’s hated for one thing only. On the issue of Iraq, the British public re-elected Blair after the facts were known i.e. after the Dodgy Dossier, David Kelly, etc: the public knew the WMD arguments were fake and still elected him. I’m as appalled as anyone else but part of me also thinks there is some kind of psychological reaction to the scale of hatred for Blair. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/102 "2017-02-25T08:17:07Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t think this is accurate. Blair’s governments did outstanding work in a number of areas perhaps most especially education and the NHS - really strong work from which we all still benefit from today. > > He’s hated for one thing only. > > On the issue of Iraq, the British public re-elected Blair after the facts were known i.e. after the Dodgy Dossier, David Kelly, etc: the public knew the WMD arguments were fake and still elected him. > > I’m as appalled as anyone else but part of me also thinks there is some kind of psychological reaction to the scale of hatred for Blair. For once I agree with you! If we could travel back in time and persuade Blair not to join in the Iraq adventure, who here can doubt that Labour would be in a much healthier state, maybe even back in power? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/103 "2017-02-25T08:30:27Z")
Oops, double post. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/104 "2017-02-25T09:15:15Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > No she’s not, Emily Thornberry is. d’oh, of course! I can’t decide whether my mis-remembering is more of a comfort or not…I’m thinking that actually neither is particularly palatable. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/105 "2017-02-25T09:24:56Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > He’s hated for one thing only. > > On the issue of Iraq, the British public re-elected Blair after the facts were known i.e. after the Dodgy Dossier, David Kelly, etc: the public knew the WMD arguments were fake and still elected him. Part of the reason for that was that plenty of labour voters were not outraged by the action against Iraq, dodgy dossier or not. They still do. The most vocal opponents of the war gain the headlines but in general conversation you’ll find plenty of people who reckon it was right to dislodge Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/106 "2017-02-25T10:10:06Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Ed’s too valuable to be left on the sidelines - he’s a clever man who can master a brief, and knows how to argue a point. True, but it’s too soon. The time for his return is after the next election. Much like Hague did, he needs to build up his back-bench reputation. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/107 "2017-02-27T11:01:48Z")
John McDonnell warns of a ‘soft coup’ against Corbyn. It’s not a shock that most of the Parliamentary Labour Party despises Corbyn but there’s much they can do at this point until Corbyn sinks lower. Perhaps a few more MPs resigning and more by-election defeats will finally get it through Corbyn’s thick skull that he’s an awful leader and will never be Prime Minister. [http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way](http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/108 "2017-03-03T09:01:53Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > John McDonnell warns of a ‘soft coup’ against Corbyn. It’s not a shock that most of the Parliamentary Labour Party despises Corbyn but there’s much they can do at this point until Corbyn sinks lower. Perhaps a few more MPs resigning and more by-election defeats will finally get it through Corbyn’s thick skull that he’s an awful leader and will never be Prime Minister. > [http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way](http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way) > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Many of the PLP are concerned for their jobs/seats, some even genuinely for the party, the majority even subscribed to the wholly undemocratic attempted coup let by Hillary Benn who didn’t have the balls to stand himself, but I’m not aware anyone “despises” Corbyn. An awful lot of people are concerned he doesn’t have, and won’t develop conventional leadership skills, but there is time to address that. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/109 "2017-03-03T09:44:42Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > An awful lot of people are concerned he doesn’t have, and won’t develop conventional leadership skills, but there is time to address that. No there isn’t. The NHS is in crisis right now. Austerity is choking social care services for the elderly right now. Education funding is being threatened with cuts in real terms right now. Benefit cuts for people with mental illness are being proposed right now. Major had a majority of 22 and was hamstrung by it, in part because the Opposition had its shit together under first Smith and then Blair. May has a majority of [del]12[/del] 14 and is governing like she had a majority of 100. _There is no better time than now to see some conventional leadership skills_. A well-led opposition would be forcing government policy to the centre. Instead policy is drifting steadily rightwards because May is more worried about her own backbenchers than the opposition. Corbyn has a job to do right now and he isn’t doing it, because he’s useless. And people notice this. Miliband spent most of 2010-14 being a nice but ineffective guy and tried to re-invent himself as a steely-nerved leader in the election campaign. “Am I tough enough? Hell yeah, I’m tough enough.” Did we believe it? Did we fuck. I don’t think even he believed it. Even if Corbyn was reborn in late 2018 as the love-child of Patton and Joan of Arc, nobody would buy it. Corbyn has made his first impression. It will stick. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/110 "2017-03-03T12:54:44Z")
Are you saying a different Labour leader right now would see austerity in the NHS end right now? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/111 "2017-03-03T13:16:02Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > And people notice this. Miliband spent most of 2010-14 being a nice but ineffective guy and tried to re-invent himself as a steely-nerved leader in the election campaign. “Am I tough enough? Hell yeah, I’m tough enough.” Did we believe it? Did we fuck. I don’t think even he believed it. Even if Corbyn was reborn in late 2018 as the love-child of Patton and Joan of Arc, nobody would buy it. Corbyn has made his first impression. It will stick. Agreed, and there is no real way for him to reverse that impression. I’m no fan of either Cameron or May but they did and do at least clear the bar of being in control of their party and their message and project an aura of leadership. John Smith? Yes, so did he. Tony Blair? Yes, Miliband? Hell no but his brother hell yes. Sturgeon? Yes, Ruth Davison? Yes. Are there others in the Labour party that will arise to that level? definitely, but no-one is sticking their head above the parapet because the means of leadership election ensures an in-built bias to Jeremy rather than considering wider appeal to the public. You can’t manufacture leadership. It’s like giving yourself a nickname…it either won’t stick or it’ll be a source of ridicule. Corbyn? No. not in a million years is he a leader. He may be a political genius and able to generate great policy but that is no use if his lack of credibility robs those policies of their credibility. He should know this already, so should his close colleagues. If they don’t they are incompetent, if they do know it and don’t make the necessary changes they are either stupid or hopelessly bound to their current path. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/112 "2017-03-03T13:58:21Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Are you saying a different Labour leader right now would see austerity in the NHS end right now? No. But there are more than two possible outcomes here. A better Opposition Leader could force the issue onto the front pages, make May and Hunt the public face of NHS failure, demand concessions and force the government to tack to the centre. If Labour were leading - or even challenging - the Tories in the polls, and clearly winning on the NHS, as it always used to but somehow doesn’t anymore, you’d better believe that funds would be being found and nursing rotas filled. Because of the electoral pressure, which is how oppositions influence government and always have. But Corbyn’s Labour is miles adrift in the polls, and more people trust the Tories with the NHS than with Labour. So there is no counterweight, and the section of popular will that Corbyn is meant to give voice to isn’t being heard. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/113 "2017-03-03T16:34:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Corbyn? No. not in a million years is he a leader. He may be a political genius and able to generate great policy but that is no use if his lack of credibility robs those policies of their credibility. He should know this already, so should his close colleagues. If they don’t they are incompetent, if they do know it and don’t make the necessary changes they are either stupid or hopelessly bound to their current path. From what I’ve read, the people around Corbyn generally feel that the important thing is to maintain control of the party, not to win elections. They would rather keep Corbyn in place, (or swap him for a younger equally hard-left version) and lose by 150 seats than surrender the leavers office to the soft-left or heaven forfend the centrists and lose by 20 seats - or even win. They’re not in this for the elections - they’re in this for the ideological purity. Corbyn won’t stand down until the succession is assured. E.g. see [here](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/03/labour-leadership-why-jeremy-corbyn-wont-be-listening-owen-jones)from Stephen Bush of the New Statesman (who has been pretty bang on about internal Labour politics over the past couple of years): > [@](#): > > And on the Corbynite side, there are two reasons why they have no intention of giving way. The first is that some in the leader’s office are not convinced that Lewis could win a leadership election. They already had come to this conclusion in the summer, when the potential for a Lewis-Corbyn swap deal was first floated. Back then, those rumblings increased the estrangement between Lewis and some Corbyn loyalists. > > “The mistake a lot of people have made, both on the left and the right,” one aide told me, “is they think that the members will always choose the most left-wing candidate. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think that John McDonnell would have beaten Andy Burnham, I don’t think Diane would have. Actually, Jeremy was a very good candidate.” > > … > > But the bigger problem is not what happens when Corbyn’s replacement is on the ballot, but in the interim. As I write in my column in this week’s New Statesman , the leader’s allies believe that if Corbyn stands down, Tom Watson will hold onto the post of acting leader for years. “If Jeremy goes, Tom Watson becomes leader and will purge the party until 2020, when he’ll lose [the general election]”, was how one well-placed source put it. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/114 "2017-03-03T17:58:38Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > From what I’ve read, the people around Corbyn generally feel that the important thing is to maintain control of the party, not to win elections. They would rather keep Corbyn in place, (or swap him for a younger equally hard-left version) and lose by 150 seats than surrender the leavers office to the soft-left or heaven forfend the centrists and lose by 20 seats - or even win. They’re not in this for the elections - they’re in this for the ideological purity. Corbyn won’t stand down until the succession is assured. Doesn’t that guarantee the party will split? There must be plenty of members who want power, either to effect change or for its own sake. Will the splitters form a new party, or find refuge in another? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/115 "2017-03-03T18:50:52Z")
This is all a little too dramatic. It really isn’t that exciting, or binary. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/116 "2017-03-03T21:26:36Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > No. But there are more than two possible outcomes here. A better Opposition Leader could force the issue onto the front pages, make May and Hunt the public face of NHS failure, The problem there, of course, is that the NHS isn’t failing. Could it do better? Absolutely. Are there issues? Definitely - bed blocking for one. But they’re not NHS failures - for example, the blocked bed issue is a DSS problem, not providing care home space for these people. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/117 "2017-03-03T23:44:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But they’re not NHS failures - for example, the blocked bed issue is a DSS problem, not providing care home space for these people. It’s not a DSS problem (note the DSS name ceased to be used in 2001), it’s largely a local authority funding problem. The councils I’m familiar with are punch-drunk after years of the block grant being cut, and council tax freezes. Adult social care has been protected as much as possible, but is now collapsing, and thus the NHS blocked bed problems. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/118 "2017-03-04T00:10:17Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > It’s not a DSS problem (note the DSS name ceased to be used in 2001), it’s largely a local authority funding problem. The councils I’m familiar with are punch-drunk after years of the block grant being cut, and council tax freezes. Adult social care has been protected as much as possible, but is now collapsing, and thus the NHS blocked bed problems. To elaborate on this a bit, one of the major problems is transitioning elderly patients from hospital back to their _own_ homes. The local authority should make sure the home is suitable for the person to return to - say the toilet needs adaptation for people with decreased mobility, or the shower needs handrails - and also potentially to provide carers to help with dressing, washing, cooking etc. These services are the real bottleneck. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/119 "2017-03-04T14:00:50Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > John McDonnell warns of a ‘soft coup’ against Corbyn. It’s not a shock that most of the Parliamentary Labour Party despises Corbyn but there’s much they can do at this point until Corbyn sinks lower. Perhaps a few more MPs resigning and more by-election defeats will finally get it through Corbyn’s thick skull that he’s an awful leader and will never be Prime Minister. > [http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way](http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way) I found this briefing a bit humorous. First, McDonnell says this: [QUOTE=McDonnell] This constant barrage of negative briefings also crowds out any positive initiatives or narrative from Jeremy and his team. It also feeds and confirms in the public’s mind that the Labour Party is split. [/QUOTE] The way he’s phrased it makes you think that it’s just a media misrepresentation: Labour is solid, except for some media narratives that are misleading the public. Then later in the same paragraph you get this: [QUOTE=McDonnell] The coup plotters are willing to sacrifice the Party at elections just to topple Jeremy and prevent a socialist leading the Party. It is more important to them that they regain control of the Party than it is to win elections. [/QUOTE] Well, yes, that’s pretty much the definition of a major split in a party. It’s not just a misleading media narrative; McDonnell’s whole article confirms that Labour is split. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239/120 "2017-03-04T17:15:59Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Well, yes, that’s pretty much the definition of a major split in a party. It’s not just a misleading media narrative; McDonnell’s whole article confirms that Labour is split. The other dead giveaway of a split is the mass resignation from the shadow cabinet and the lack of back-bench support by many senior and prominent labour MP’s. The media didn’t make that up, nor did they cause it and it the public are well able to detect fissures in the party through that simple, objective observation alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jeremy-corbyn-is-still-a-disaster/767239.md?page=7)