# jerks. i'm so happy for the women you know. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008 "2003-02-23T20:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/81 "2003-02-24T19:42:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\* To which I must ask, is there such a gigantic Pro-Rape lobby that we must pad stats to bolster our ideals? :rolleyes: > \*\* Sadly, yes. I doubt if many individual women are doing this, but some researchers and organizations do have a vested interest in inflating rape and sexual abuse statistics. Look at RAINN, the people pushing the 17.6% statistic, for example. They’re a national organization competing for charitable dollars. Obviously, the bigger problem rape is perceived to be, the better it is for them. This is neither shocking nor nefarious. It’s just the way the world works, from mouthwash manufacturers to save-the-children charities. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/82 "2003-02-24T19:43:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*sorry. Torturous. \*\* And _tortious_ also. If you can’t prove a rape with a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard, take the rapist to civil court alleging the tort of battery and face only a “preponderance of the evidence standard.” Criminal liability: 99% sure he did it. Civil liability: 51% sure he did it. Rape shield evidence laws protect the accuser from questions about her sexual past in both criminal and civil cases. So add tortious to torturous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/83 "2003-02-24T19:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Rex Dart_ > Rape shield evidence laws protect the accuser from questions about her sexual past in both criminal and civil cases. Do you have a problem with this? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/84 "2003-02-24T19:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*Gosh, that must be terrible. > > But I don’t think it’s as terrible as being raped. I don’t even think it’s as terrible as living in fear of being raped. > > I’m getting a little tired of this “Oh we poor men have such a burden to bear, what with having to worry about being wrongly accused of rape by crazy women!” business (and you’re far from the worst offender in that regard, **Sock Munkey** , this post is not just directed at you). I wouldn’t like to have to worry about being falsely accused of rape, but I’d like it a hell of a lot better than having to worry about _being_ raped, or having _already_ been raped, and that is the group many of the female posters here fall into. They are the people who have the real right to claim “gut level defensiveness”, but they’ve behaved much better here and in the other thread than many of the “defensive” men who were actually being _offensive_. \*\* Small personal disclaimer here: While **Sock Munkey** quoted me one of the people who “have it pretty much right,” i should note that the intention of my post was to point out that the fear that some men have of being falsely accused is, in general, not justified by the number of actual occurrences. I said: > [@](#): > > I also think that, for guys, some of this ridiculous attitude stems from a sort of visceral fear of being unfairly accused of sexual assault. It has become a legal truism that rape is one of the hardest things to prove even if it actually happened, and also one of the easiest accusations to make even if it didn’t. The problem is, i think, that many people look past the first part of this dyad and concentrate only on the second. > > I have no statistics to hand of how frequently women falsely accuse men of sexual assault, but the problem is that, whether the statistics are small or large, the spectre of such an accusation has taken hold of many men and convinced them they must live their lives in fear of being the victim of an evil woman. I really don’t think this fear is justified, but at the same time can understand where it comes from. The problem is, it diverts attention from the people who are the vast majority of victims in this issue - the women who suffer sexual assaults. I really never intended my words to imply that i thought men have a greater burden to bear than women in this issue. I’m not sure whether **Sock munkey** took them that way, but if s/he did then s/he misinterpreted me. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/85 "2003-02-24T20:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*I really never intended my words to imply that i thought men have a greater burden to bear than women in this issue. I’m not sure whether **Sock munkey** took them that way, but if s/he did then s/he misinterpreted me. \*\* Don’t worry **mhendo** , I understood what you meant, and I’m sorry if it seemed that I didn’t in my post. I think you and I are pretty much in agreement on this matter. I do feel sorry for anyone wrongly accused of a crime, or even anyone who is the victim of malicious gossip\*, but I feel far worse for the victims of violent crimes whose attackers are never punished. I hate seeing the plight of the latter ignored in favor of the former. \*Interestingly, for all the talk about how the term “rape” should be defined, no one thus far has seemed to have much interest in pinning down what is meant by “some women lie about rape”. I suspect that the number of people willing to spread false gossip to their friends is much higher than the number of people willing to file a false police report or lie under oath. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/86 "2003-02-24T20:10:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **LaurAnge** said: > catsix, get what I want? What, I ask, might that be? That was in reference to you calling me a ‘controversy whore’ and stating that the only reason I post is to be a ‘confrontational bitch’. Since the reason I post is to express my opinion on the matter, I’m neither here just to incite controversy nor speaking just to be confrontational. So whether or not you think I’m a ‘vile human being’, there’s not really a chance that I can ‘stop being such a controversy whore’. For that to be possible, I’d have to be here _just to invoke a nasty reaction_ which would be trolling, which is not something I do. It’s like you asking me to stop beating my wife. That’s something I can’t do because I don’t have a wife. You may continue to dislike my opinion, and if you want to call me a bitch or a vile human being because of it, that’s fine by me. But saying I’m only posting to create controversy? That’s not too far from accusing me of trolling. It’s not the motivation for my posts, so regardless of what you think of me personally, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t claim I’m only trying to bait controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/87 "2003-02-24T20:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The vast majority of DNA exonerations are not examples of false accusation, but misidentification by the victim or by law enforcement. The victim _was_ assaulted, just not by the guy who got convicted. In many of these cases the victim was actually murdered so it can hardly be argued that they were lying, the cops just got the wrong guy. Do you actually have a cite for a rape conviction being reversed after the victim “admitted she lied?” > > I didn’t think so. \*\* I know of ONE case, from back in the 80s. The Gary Dotson case, as cited above. The ratio, let’s see, 8 out of 100, say, for every 25 reported rapes, 2 turn out to be false. Also, **catsix** , of those false reports, how many are actually then prosecuted and found guilty? Those are only false REPORTS. And please keep in mind that just because YOU were able to cope and go on, does not mean every other rape victim is. Everyone is different. Not everyone is as strong as you are. I’m not attacking you, but I really think you need to calm the fuck down and stop going for the jugular every time someone disagrees with you. And **RexDart** , a woman’s sexual history should NOT have anything to do with whether or not she was raped. Prostitutes are raped-does that mean it’s okay? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/88 "2003-02-24T20:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Guinastasia_ > know of ONE case, from back in the 80s. The Gary Dotson case, as cited above. > The ratio, let’s see, 8 out of 100, say, for every 25 reported rapes, 2 turn out to be false. And I’m willing to bet that for every false report, there are a hundred real rapes that go unreported. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/89 "2003-02-24T20:30:38Z")
I wouldn’t doubt it. But since someone pointed out REPORTED rapes, I had to go with that one. Since you really can’t make a false report without reporting it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/90 "2003-02-24T20:31:52Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by catsix \* **That was in reference to you calling me a ‘controversy whore’ and stating that the only reason I post is to be a ‘confrontational bitch’.** [quote] Huh? I fail to see how that expresses “what I want”. > [@](#): > > \*\*Since the reason I post is to express my opinion on the matter, I’m neither here just to incite controversy nor speaking just to be confrontational. \*\* Truthfully, I just don’t believe you. I would not say this if my opinion was formed in this thread only. You’d “appreciate” it if I didn’t claim what I’m saying? Too fucking bad. The only thing I base what I think of you “personally” on is your conduct, and I’ve found you to be deliberately inflammatory on too many occasions to count. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/91 "2003-02-24T21:13:00Z")
With all due respect guys, I don’t see **RexDart** saying anything that could be remotely construed as critical of rape shield laws. To me, it looked like he was just reporting that they exist. Oh, and I’d like to point out that most likely nearly all false rape claims also go unreported. I’ll bet significantly more women, if they should choose to fake a rape claim for some reason, will just tell their friends and not file a police report. **Tee** : Seeing as no one has yet been able to offer a credible statistic close to the “1/4 of women are raped” claim, I think it’s safe to call it BS until someone offers evidence to the contrary. **Lamia** : So men don’t get raped, eh? Be sure to tell that to the guys in our nation’s prisons. I’m sure they’ll be glad to learn it was all in their head. _Boilerplate: None of the above should be construed as an attempt to diminish the pain of those actually raped._ ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/92 "2003-02-24T21:18:00Z")
Well, **LaurAnge** , I guess you’re just going to be disappointed. I’m not here to be ‘deliberately inflammatory’ or however it is you want to imply that I’m trolling. Disliking me or disliking my opinion about an issue does not mean I posted it just to provoke some reaction from you. Whether you believe me or not, I’m not sitting here at the keyboard thinking ‘Shit, what can I post that’ll piss someone off today’. If you’re accusing me of that, you’re way off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/93 "2003-02-24T21:42:45Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by FDISK \* \*\* **Lamia** : So men don’t get raped, eh?_\* [QUOTE] I have said nothing of the sort, and if you can read then you damn well know it. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/94 "2003-02-24T21:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*Small personal disclaimer here: > > While **Sock Munkey** quoted me one of the people who “have it pretty much right,” i should note that the intention of my post was to point out that the fear that some men have of being falsely accused is, in general, not justified by the number of actual occurrences. I said: I really never intended my words to imply that i thought men have a greater burden to bear than women in this issue. I’m not sure whether **Sock munkey** took them that way, but if s/he did then s/he misinterpreted me. \*\* If it was assumed that that’s what I was saying then I too, was misinterpreted. I was acknowledging what was said about WHY men react the way they do and expanding on why some of the male posters reacted as they did. Note that this is not a sign of approval for said reactions and I would appreciate being asked what I mean before such things are assumed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/95 "2003-02-24T21:52:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sock Munkey \* > \*\*If it was assumed that that’s what I was saying then I too, was misinterpreted. I was acknowledging what was said about WHY men react the way they do and expanding on why some of the male posters reacted as they did. Note that this is not a sign of approval for said reactions and I would appreciate being asked what I mean before such things are assumed. \*\* If you don’t approve of someone else’s behavior it’s usually best to say this explicitly when you’re making excuses for that behavior. It avoids confusion. But if you were as appalled as I was at the personal attacks made on rape victims in the other thread then we are pretty much on the same side here. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/96 "2003-02-24T22:37:41Z")
**Lamia** : Your post made the claim that guys get to live in a world where the only thing they have to worry about is the remote chance that some vindictive girl will toss an accusation at them. This is ridiculous. The fear of getting raped is probably the number one reason why most men will try to avoid prison. Besides this, it does happen that men are raped in everyday life, in much the same way as a woman is. While the incidence is probably far lower, I believe that the percentage of male rapes that are reported is near zero. Why are we even arguing this? Everything about rape sucks for everyone involved, and no one escapes having to worry about it. OK? Can we agree on that? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/97 "2003-02-24T23:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > \*\ ***Lamia** : Your post made the claim that guys get to live in a world where the only thing they have to worry about is the remote chance that some vindictive girl will toss an accusation at them. > \*\* No, I did not. Here is the quote I believe you are talking about, although you haven’t bothered to actually quote me at all in any of your posts: > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t like to have to worry about being falsely accused of rape, but I’d like it a hell of a lot better than having to worry about being raped, or having already been raped, and that is the group many of the female posters here fall into. Note the key phrase “many of the female posters here”. I was not talking about the world at large, but the people in this thread and the one that inspired it. I was stating my opinions on the attitudes I have seen here. Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear on this point, but I was speaking only of the people here, not all the people in the whole wide world. As best as I can tell, everyone _in this thread or the one that inspired it_ who has expressed any concern about personally being raped has been a woman, while everyone _in this thread or the one that inspired it_ who has expressed any concern about personally being accused of rape has been a man. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/98 "2003-02-24T23:53:13Z")
**Lamia** : Read your own quote. You are claiming that men do not worry about being raped, and are not raped. This is erroneous. You don’t know what’s happened to the men reading this thread, nor do you know their fears. I find it quite likely that at least several of the men reading this thread have been raped at some point in their lives, and quite possibly some of the men who have posted. Nothing makes the people HERE less likely to have been raped, or less likely to be afraid of rape versus those who aren’t dopers. Again, rape is an issue that affects both men and women. Does it affect them differently? To a degree. But to claim that either gender doesn’t have it as bad as the other is simply crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/99 "2003-02-25T00:06:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > \*\ ***Lamia** : Read your own quote. You are claiming that men do not worry about being raped, and are not raped. > \*\* No, I was claiming that the men here who seemed to think false rape accusations are a matter of greater concern than actual rapes must not be rape victims themselves or worry much about being raped. > [@](#): > > \*\* > This is erroneous. You don’t know what’s happened to the men reading this thread, nor do you know their fears. I find it quite likely that at least several of the men reading this thread have been raped at some point in their lives, > \*\* Since I was discussing the attitudes displayed by _posters_ in this thread, the experiences and feelings of non-posting readers is irrelevant when it comes to the truth value of my previous post. > [@](#): > > \*\* > and quite possibly some of the men who have posted. > \*\* Perhaps, but they haven’t said so, and since I was talking about what had actually been posted then that’s also irrelevant when it comes to the truth value of my previous post. I don’t know why you’re so desperate to apply my comments about a few posters in two threads to all the men in the world, or even all the men on this board. I think I have been pretty clear about what subset of the male population I was talking about, and had I wanted my remarks to apply to a larger group I would have been clear about that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/100 "2003-02-25T00:28:53Z")
**Lamia** : I don’t see anyone claiming that false rape accusations are of greater concern than actual rapes. Link? And again, my point is that no matter what subset of men you try to restrict your comments to, it’s still true that some of them will probably have been raped, and a good portion probably hold at least some fear of it happening to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008.md?page=6)