# jerks. i'm so happy for the women you know. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008 "2003-02-23T20:11:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Daikona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Daikona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daikona)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/101 "2003-02-25T00:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*I think one guy in the other thread said he had, twice. I know I read it tonight, I think it was in that thread, somewhere on page 2. \*\* And obviously there’s no way he could be anything less than 100% honest in _his_ part of it. I mean come on, he’s telling us this anonymously on a message board, he’s way more trustworthy than say, a woman going to the police. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/102 "2003-02-25T00:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > \*\ ***Lamia** : I don’t see anyone claiming that false rape accusations are of greater concern than actual rapes. Link? And again, my point is that no matter what subset of men you try to restrict your comments to, it’s still true that some of them will probably have been raped, and a good portion probably hold at least some fear of it happening to them. \*\* You’re probably right. The funny thing, however, is how many people on these message boards, especially men, are willing to joke about the possibility of rape when the potential victim is someone in jail. There was a thread recently (i can’t remember which one - i’ll try a search later) in which people were discussing a criminal trial or something similar. Quite a few people expressed the wish that, if found guilty, the accused would end up serving as “bitch” to some prison tough-guy. IIRC, it was **jarbabyj** who first pointed out how ridiculous this was, and a couple of others (me included) backed her up. Don’t recall hearing any apologies, however. I’m not saying everyone’s like this. Just making a point about a level of insensitivity that some people seem happy with. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/103 "2003-02-25T00:48:03Z")
**Daikona** : So we’re supposed to believe women when they say they’re victims, but not men? Holy double standards, batman! False claims of rape happen. This is a fact. You wouldn’t claim a rape victim was making it up to get attention, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/104 "2003-02-25T00:52:23Z")
**mhendo** : Rape is often considered an aspect of punishment in prison. In general, I think people are going to look the other way, or even encourage it if they feel that the victim deserves it, such as in the case of a child molestor. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/105 "2003-02-25T01:05:59Z")
Found the thread i mentioned. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=157022) it is. Actually, it was about five teenagers who allegedly beat up a special ed. student and videotaped it. One poster said: > [@](#): > > I have no religious beliefs so let me condemn them. To the nearest adult prison where they will wish they were in hell, as they are passed around like sweat covered coins for a pack of Marlboros. Better that they resist at first, so that they will be beaten into submission by Big Earl, the 300 pound ex marine and his “good buddy” Jake the Jackhammer. and in reply, another said: > [@](#): > > A most excellent scenario for these idiots. At least one other made a reference to being someone’s “bitch.” Another suggested more of an eye-for-an-eye type situation: > [@](#): > > Maybe instead of sending these “good” kids to jail, we could simply find several willing citizens to beat the shit out of each of them and videotape each beating. And in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=156831), about a group of teenagers that allegedly raped a teenage girl while she was passed out at a party, one poster’s idea of punishment was that: > [@](#): > > they spent a night in a prison, and were gang raped themselves. I think THAT would definitely cure them. Actually, there was a comment in that thread that pertains to this one, or at least to the issue of women reporting rape. Everyone was discussing the way the media was filled with quotes about hhow the alleged attackers were all “good boys” from “good homes” who had made a silly mistake. As one poster pointed out: > [@](#): > > and then people wonder why victims find it so hard to come forward… why would you, if you’re going to be told the people who assaulted you are “good kids who only meant well”? Just food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/106 "2003-02-25T01:10:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > **Tee: Seeing as no one has yet been able to offer a credible statistic close to the “1/4 of women are raped” claim, I think it’s safe to call it BS until someone offers evidence to the contrary.** I went and visited the infamous RAINN site for stats, was linked to a part of UCLA Medical Center - Santa Monica and this is taken directly from “Rape Facts” section: > [@](#): > > Using a definition of rape that includes forced vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse, the survey found that 1 in 6 women had experienced an attempted rape or a completed rape. > > At the time they were raped: > > 22% were under the age of twelve > 54% were under the age of eighteen > 83% were under the age of twenty-five > > Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, > Department of Justice, 1998 Women do die fighting off attackers and that should be noted in any discussion about victims - I don’t know if they are included here. Having no reason to doubt the numbers I’m assuming the 1 in 6 quote is officially _not_ bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/107 "2003-02-25T01:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > \*\ ***mhendo** : Rape is often considered an aspect of punishment in prison. In general, I think people are going to look the other way, or even encourage it if they feel that the victim deserves it, such as in the case of a child molestor. \*\* Considered by whom? Not the justice system, which officially sees rape as a crime whether committed in prison or outside. Certainly some people are going to look the other way, but this makes them just as culpable as if they did the same thing on the outside. And, ignoring for a minute that the protection of the law, even inside prison, applies to child molesters as well as other prisoners, it’s not only child molesters who get raped in prison. Do YOU think rape in prison is acceptable? It wasn’t quite clear from your post, which very carefully avoided any first-person sentence construction. In my opinion, no matter how many people consider rape an “aspect of punishment in prison” or are willing to “look the other way, or even encourage it,” it is still a heinous crime even if committed in a jail. As i said in the first thread i linked to in my last post: > [@](#): > > prisons are meant to be just that - prisons. They should be places where law and order and the ideal of what it means to live in a decent society are reasserted, not torture chambers where even further dehumanization is encouraged. But maybe i’m just being naive. And, as another poster said: > [@](#): > > If you want torture and rape to form part of your judical system why not come right out and say it, lobby your politicians and get it put in the law books. > > Then expect to be asked to justify it. > > Until then, quit it. I’m tired of seeing this particular line appearing in SDMB and it never fails to sicken. It isn’t amusing and displays a very worrying faith in the applied value of criminal acts. The fact that some animals think rape is acceptable in prison doesn’t make it right. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/108 "2003-02-25T01:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > You won’t see, however, a list of rapes (documented and reported) in your daily papers. This is not true Elenfair. I worked as a newspaper reporter for several years and the papers I worked for reported rape and other crimes. We did withhold the names of the victims and I tried to go to great lengths to omit any salacious details, but they were covered. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/109 "2003-02-25T01:43:43Z")
**Tee** : What’s their definition of rape? They only say that it INCLUDES forced penetration, not the actual definition. Regardless, 1/6 is not “close” to 1/4, IMHO. **mhendo** : I feel that rape in prison is a bad thing. Honestly, I have been known to smile at the thought of some child rapist getting his just desserts in the prison shower, but I think it would be better for everyone if we could keep prisons as humane as possible, and that we should make effort toward that end. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/110 "2003-02-25T01:50:10Z")
mhendo, FDISK, correct me if i’m mistaken, but i believe jarbaby started a thread about prison rape after those comments were made? just so you know that we’ve talked about it before, and came to the conclusion it is a VERY BAD THING. maybe you’d like to search for it? if not, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/111 "2003-02-25T01:55:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > \*\*And again, my point is that no matter what subset of men you try to restrict your comments to, it’s still true that some of them will probably have been raped, and a good portion probably hold at least some fear of it happening to them. \*\* I very much doubt that people who treat false rape accusations as a matter of more concern or social importance than actual rape are themselves rape victims, or even people who worry much about being raped, and _they_ are the group of people I was refering to. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/112 "2003-02-25T02:21:55Z")
**Lamia** : Once again, link? I didn’t see anyone claiming more concern about false claims of rape than actual cases of rape, yet you see a herd. Your post seemed directed at EVERYONE who raised the point false rape accusations, and amounted to “You think YOU’VE got it bad?!” I don’t see much point in a contest over who’s got it worse. Can’t we just agree that everything about rape sucks for everyone involved, and just call it a day? ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/113 "2003-02-25T02:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*I went and visited the infamous RAINN site for stats, was linked to a part of UCLA Medical Center - Santa Monica and this is taken directly from “Rape Facts” section: > > Women do die fighting off attackers and that should be noted in any discussion about victims - I don’t know if they are included here. Having no reason to doubt the numbers I’m assuming the 1 in 6 quote is officially _not_ bullshit. \*\* Did you just parachute into this discussion from MPSIMS or what? There’s plenty of reason to doubt this statistic, as has been pointed out in this thread and beaten to death in the thread that spawned it. Any statistic is only as good as the methodology that produced it. Even RAINN knows it. [http://www.rainn.org/newsarchive/december98/stat.html](http://www.rainn.org/newsarchive/december98/stat.html) Now do you have a reason to doubt the numbers? This is a classic case of one of my favorite bits of wisdom. “People want to believe what they want to believe and they don’t want to believe what they don’t want to believe.” People latch onto these things because they validate what they already “knoe.” Whether they are actually true or not seems to be of secondary interest. Hence, things like the one-in-four-college-students-are-rape-victims statistic takes on a life of its own in the collective imagination and can never be killed, no matter how many times you put a stake through it. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/114 "2003-02-25T03:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*Did you just parachute into this discussion from MPSIMS or what? There’s plenty of reason to doubt this statistic, as has been pointed out in this thread and beaten to death in the thread that spawned it. Any statistic is only as good as the methodology that produced it. > > Even RAINN knows it. [http://www.rainn.org/newsarchive/december98/stat.html](http://www.rainn.org/newsarchive/december98/stat.html) > > Now do you have a reason to doubt the numbers? \*\* No, just came upon this here in the Pit. Flawed methodology doesn’t equal complete bullshit, which was what I wanted to have clarified earlier. Those numbers line up with my prior knowledge that one out of every so many women I know has been forced, or someone attempted to force them, into having sex or participating somewhat at some point in their lives, so no. I don’t have a single reason to doubt it, and would gladly accept a lower number if I had reason to. Unless there’s some other kind of evidence offered I have to assume the doubters doubt because they aren’t aware of it happening with any frequency to the women they know - and have nothing more than that to base _their_ views on. So it’s a wash. ---
**Author:** ![Sqube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Sqube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sqube)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/115 "2003-02-25T03:09:28Z")
I agree with **Truth Seeker** … while I’m sure there are a lot of rapes that occur, if 25% of women were being raped, a lot more information would have gotten out by now. I also understand what some people (sorry about not citing, I’m kinda lazy right now) mean about having to apologize for having a penis and a sex drive. Look, males have sex drives. It’s kinda what we do, and we’re pretty single-minded when it comes to it. Since some people are really getting antsy about this whole topic, please do _ **NOT** _ interpret this statement as giving permission, either implicit or explicit, to forced sex in any way, shape, or form. That said, the reason a lot of males were so defensive when you made this post is because rape is one of those topics where there are stigmas that people attempt to attach to both sides. One position is that the woman brought it on herself, and must have been a cheap hussy asking for it. Once it happened, she decided she didn’t want it getting out/didn’t like it as much as she thought it would, and cried rape. This is a stereotypical reaction, but a lot of stereotypes have their basis in fact. Option 2? She didn’t deserve it, plain and simple. Maybe he missed those subtle hints. You know, those subtle hints which are so subtle that they can be interpreted either way by a man who doesn’t know that unless the woman has given him a yes, it’s a no? Maybe he missed those. Maybe he’s your stereotypical rapist, you’re “Move and I’ll kill you” type of guy. So basically, when a guy hears something about rape, he’s faced with two options. When you attack any individual at the core of their being (in this case, a man who sees himself as fundamentally good and probably does not appreciate being compared to bad people in any way, shape, or form), they’re going to give you a gut reaction, à la “She must have been asking for it”, or some variation. I know this is tangential, but I really feel that it was relevant. I know that I’m new, and I imagine that there’s someone out there who’s going to strongly disagree (to put it mildly) with what I’ve said, but I’m going to stick to my guns. After all, if I won’t, who the hell else will? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/116 "2003-02-25T03:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FDISK \* > **I didn’t see anyone claiming more concern about false claims of rape than actual cases of rape, yet you see a herd.** If you don’t see it, you don’t see it, and there’s nothing I can do about that. You could have said that in the first place though, rather than falsely accusing me of saying that no men are ever raped. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/117 "2003-02-25T03:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Antimanics \* > \*\*There is nothing courageous about standing up to eight letters on the left-hand side of the one’s screen. \*\* No, but it takes courage to relive a tragic experience, then be forced to defend her reaction to that situation to a hostile challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/118 "2003-02-25T03:36:55Z")
**Lamia** : I didn’t _falsely_ accuse you of anything: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lamia_ > I wouldn’t like to have to worry about being falsely accused of rape, but I’d like it a hell of a lot better than having to worry about being raped, or having already been raped, and that is the group many of the female posters here fall into. This implies a mutually exclusive relationship where none exists. It is factually inaccurate, and misleading. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the entire POINT of your post is your claim that men don’t have the problems women do, thus can’t make an issue of false claims of rape. And no, I don’t see anyone claiming that false claims of rape are worse than true claims of rape. I see several guys making asses of themselves in this and the original thread, but I don’t see anyone making that claim. However, as the original thread is four pages long now, I may have overlooked something. Feel free to give me a link. Failing that, I think you’re just seeing prejudice where none exists. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/119 "2003-02-25T03:37:18Z")
**The Peyote Coyote** - I think I didn’t make myself clear, and I apologize - you’re quite right, papers do publish these things. Out here, though, I’ve found that they will publish cases of rapes by “unknown attackers”, or cases where charges have been brought up, or more “spectacular” cases - the hair raising ones that are just beyond barbaric. From working in the ERs and in shelters, my experience is that out of 25 cases or so, _one_ would make it into the papers - usually because the attacker was still “at large” and unknown. Most of the others knew their attackers, and didn’t press charges - or if they did, the “story” was just never picked up… I hope that makes a bit more sense. I didn’t mean to imply newspapers don’t cover these things at all. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008/120 "2003-02-25T04:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*And **RexDart** , a woman’s sexual history should NOT have anything to do with whether or not she was raped. Prostitutes are raped-does that mean it’s okay? \*\* When did I say that it should? What about my post led you to believe I was attacking that position? What, just because that idiot blowhard **Diogenes** chimed in with the subsequent post implying that I thought that way? He doesn’t get to make my statements for me, I do, and there was nothing in my entire post suggesting either approval for, or disapproval for, rape shield laws. I described rape as a tort, and went on to very briefly outline the features that made it attractive as an option to sue in civil court on a theory of tortious battery. I do think there should be one exception to them, and it probably does exist at the federal level, so my position is not that divergent with the existing law. That’s concerning the prostitutes. The consent defense requires that the accused convince the jury that the sexual encounter was consensual. To present this defense, it would be highly useful to the accused to be able to argue, “she’s a prostitute, I paid her, she consented so she could get my money”. This defense is far more convincing to the jury if the defense can argue “she really is a prostitute” rather than merely “she told _me_ she was a prostitute”, the latter being what state rape shield laws might limit the defense to. In this case, establishing that she’s a prostitute is central to the consent defense being presented. The federal rules might allow this through a general provision that allows such evidence when to disallow it would prevent the defense from having an effective defense. Sure, prostitutes can be raped, probably are raped by pimps and nonpaying johns quite frequently, and she will have the chance to establish that with her testimony. The rape shield laws are about balancing risk of unfair prejudice to the accuser against risk of unfair prejudice to the accused. I don’t have a general problem with rape shield laws, but I think there can be some specific situations in which the balance of unfair prejudice can run too much risk of hamstringing an innocent defendant’s ability to present a competent defense. The general wrong towards which such laws were directed was the tendency of defense attorneys to drag every single prior sexual encounter of the woman’s into the courtroom and badger her about them in an attempt to demonstrate that she was a slut. That being the most common function of those laws, I agree with them on that account. So I support rape shield laws’ general effectiveness, and have only a narrow concern about them in very limited specific situations, a concern shared to some extent by the federal lawmakers who made the rule. Now that I’ve said what I _actually_ believe, you all can stop doing my thinking for me. BTW, the rape shield laws aren’t a 100% shield. Prior sexual history with the _defendant_ can be introduced as part of an argument that “we had an ongoing sexual relationship, she consented all those times, she consented this time also”. It’s not a foolproof argument, as there are several scenarios in which prior consent wouldn’t even remotely imply present consent, but the federal laws allow the evidence to be presented. It would then be for the jury to decide whether they believed the defendant or the accuser, but the fact that there was a prior existing relationship would be out there for the jury to consider. And of course, pretty much anything seen as being unfairly prejudicial can be excluded by the judge under his discretionary authority stemming from FRE 403. So the judge could still knock some evidence out if he thought it was mostly irrelevant to the fact at issue. So that might get prior sexual history excluded also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jerks-im-so-happy-for-the-women-you-know/157008.md?page=7)