Well except for that whole bit about how most people would be served better by going to a trade school and it would result in greater devaluation of a four year degree, yeah you’ve got a point. :rolleyes:
Perhaps a four year degree doesn’t actually have any value outside of sheer education. So?
So you flood the market with kids with bachelors degrees but with no appreciable skills, no real worldview, no real sense of being educated. But they have a credential - one that is good enough to get them hired as a bank teller - especially since banks don’t trust applicants with only a high school diploma.
And for good reason, mind, since we all know that one of the fastest growing instructional areas for colleges is remedial education - teaching students in their first couple of terms the stuff they should have learned in high school.
I’m all for boosting opportunity, mind, but I think this proposal would be neutral or negative in results.
Or perhaps a four year degree often has no value INSIDE of education.
Just what we need more beer pong majors on the government’s dime. :rolleyes:
No, they would no longer be able to work as a bank teller as banks would require a Masters degree for bank tellers now.
Right we should teach people these things in High School and be more open to trade school tracks for some.
Trade school boosts opportunity more than an English Major.
Well, as long as they stay off your lawn…
Why not simply make higher level education free? We are (in theory) moving that way on health care, why not education too? Once we get the free energy system up and running and our high speed rail system going from coast to coast we are going to need free education to round things off, no?
Sounds like a great idea to me. Tell Jackson to bring it on!
-XT
Or why not recognize the basic fact that most office work could be handled by someone with an associates degree or less? You can get a job in a recording studio after a three semester program at a trade school and the skills required are far more in depth and technical than what is required to run Excel.
The idea that people are getting an education just by going to a four year school is pretty erroneous. Schools graduate ignorant morons all the time. Unfortunately they are often ignorant morons with a pile of consumer debt and unrealistic expectations about their job prospects.
I don’t understand what any of the above means.
The first sentence is completely incomprehensible to me.
I don’t understand the second sentence at all. Is that your reference to Jackson’s ‘savings’? Bank manager salaries, or the cost-of-operations, are a tiny portion of a loan P&L. The biggest line item in a loan P&L is credit losses, which are assured to go up if government officials get in charge of the underwriting process, or subsidize it altogether. Ref: Fannie and Freddie
Are you asserting that price for public tuition will always stay fixed? If that’s true, than supply and quality will decline, and demand will increase. But fixed public tuition price is news to me. Every public institution I’m familiar with has seen their tuition skyrocket over the past 10-15 years. I didn’t realize that we were only talking about public institutions.
I saw the same commercial. How many recording studios do you think there are, anyway?
Not about running slightly glorified trade schools, about educating people, that they will be better informed, hence, better decision makers, hence better citizens.
I don’t know how many “ignorant morons” are graduated on a yearly basis, which is why I try to avoid making bald sweeping statements. Neither do you, which is why I recommend a similar restraint on your part.
Around here? Hundreds, but elsewhere there are also jobs running sound in bars, outdoor concerts, churches, trade shows and conventions.
I see no evidence that making college more accessible accomplishes this goal.
When I was working as a Mac Tech for a DPS department, I had to consistently teach these college grads how to do their jobs in the field they graduated from college for. People would be impressed and amazed by my mad skillz and ask where I went to college. I didn’t, I learned it by taking the initiative and getting unpaid internships where people taught me how to use the softwares. It took me much less than four years to be far better at these people’s jobs than they were.
For DTP you don’t need any college, just a week long InDesign course.
No data, no data, and anecdote. Thanks for sharing,
What data did you provide? Burden of proof is on you my friend to prove that going to college has some kind of intangible benefit.
My argument is that most people are going to go to school are trying to get a better job (why you would dispute this I don’t know) and that instead of forcing them to pile on consumer debt so they can get some intangible benefit that we should focus more on trade schools that will help them achieve their actual goals.
Let Universities be filled by people who actually want to be there rather than by people who now HAVE TO BE, because it has become the baseline for education.
There’s plenty written about this, it’s not like I am offering some radical argument.
Your abusing the notion of data. I shouldn’t need to prove that churches, bars and clubs have sound systems.
So, no data necessary, burden of proof is on you, yes anecdote.
I say you haven’t provided proof, you insist you don’t need to. OK by me.
So your prescription to this is to provide even more people with generalized bachelor’s degrees into the marketplace - without the specific skills that the economy needs to really take off or that they need to really be successful in life. How, again, is that going to work out?
I’m not saying trade school is the answer across the board - though I will note that I have a brother who has a skilled trade who makes a very good living for his family and will enjoy job security for life provided he is willing to relocate. The solution to this likely is multifaceted - and just throwing money at students or colleges isn’t going to work this time around.
Depends on your goal. If your goal is a more economically robust citizenry, perhaps you’re right. My goal is a better educated citizenry. Which point seems to elude you.
Well, who is better educated - a person who graduates from college with an English degree after four years or my brother - who has one semester of college but an awful lot of training and expertise in his chosen field as a millwright?
I will freely admit that one may have a broader education than the other - but the country needs millwrights a bit more than English majors in the aggregate right now, as that skill set is a valuable one that is increasingly hard to find.
I agree fixed tuition for public institutions isn’t something I’ve read. I know that public universities try not to increase tuition, some opt to decrease the number of students admitted instead of a tuition hike.
I believe what the OP is referring to is the student loan process that was privatized under Bill Clinton. Instead of government direct loans, college loans have been given over to private lenders but still have taxpayer grantees. The result has been big profits for private lenders through exploitative lending and collection practices. It is another example of the taxpayer guaranteeing profits for private lenders instead of a public service for America’s youth. Private lenders generate big paydays by charging outrageous fees and oppressive interest rates.
The decrease in public funding for public universities is another issue. College has become unreachable for low and moderate income earners. Students can’t finish because the cost is prohibitive or don’t enroll because of the amount families must pay. No other developed country treats college students like a cash cow.