# Jesse Ventura was right to sue the estate of Chris Kyle **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346 "2014-10-14T22:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/1 "2014-10-14T22:29:42Z")
This isn’t a topic that I imagine will garner much interest, but I’ve followed it some and a few things have stood out, two in specific: 1. The facts unambiguously make Chris Kyle out to be a liar who enriched himself based in part on a lie that severely defames a person who himself is a former Navy SEAL 2. Reaction to both the lawsuit and the verdict have almost universally condemned/bashed Ventura for his actions. I’ll just [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Ventura#Chris_Kyle_controversy) to the Wikipedia entry on the controversy. A quick summary: Jesse Ventura is a former Governor of Minnesota, professional wrestler and actor who served in the Navy in the Vietnam War era as a member of a Underwater Demolitions Team. Most recognize these individuals lineally as “Navy SEALs” because UDTs were later disbanded and folded into the SEALs, and many UDT members fought in engagements identical to SEALs, including significant actions in WWII and the Vietnam War. Due to this, Ventura has frequently participated in SEAL gatherings and events. Ventura has also been a vocal anti-war critic and has bashed Bush era military adventurism. Chris Kyle was a Navy SEAL who acquired 160 confirmed kills serving in Iraq. He then retired and started a company that specialized in training for defense contractors and such, and wrote a book and signed a movie deal. In his book, he claims at a SEAL gathering a celebrity says that “Navy SEALs deserve to die for fighting in unjust wars” (paraphrase), Kyle then claims to punch the guy out. In the publicity drive for the book, Kyle identifies the unnamed celebrity as Jesse Ventura. Ventura sues Kyle, asserting that Kyle’s story is a fabrication and Kyle told the story to generate publicity for his book. During the litigation, a veteran Kyle was working with shot and killed Kyle. Ventura continued the litigation against Kyle’s estate, and won–in the amount of $1.8m. My argument: All the evidence and the result of the court proceeding show Kyle’s story to be a lie. There is photographic evidence of Kyle and Ventura on good terms at the meeting in question, and there is no evidence of Ventura having been punched. He is on blood thinners and would have shown visible bruising, but despite photos that were taken in that time span he showed none. Not a single person other than Kyle would substantiate the story, and many in fact stated that during the entire time Kyle and Ventura were near one another no altercation or incident occurred. Kyle made roughly $6m off of book royalties, and $500k off of the movie deal. Harper Collins libel insurance covered $500k of the settlement against Kyle’s estate, and further it covered all of the costs of the litigation itself. Meaning the estate had to factually pay $1.3m to Ventura. Ventura’s attorneys did not work on contingency, he had to pay them for every hour they worked and incurred substantial legal fees, in his words the lion’s share of the money is going solely to pay his costs in litigating to clear his name. I think Ventura deserves no public condemnation for continuing the suit against Kyle’s estate, because Ventura was someone who was proud of his military service and while often critical of American military policy found it abhorrent that he was accused of wishing death on American soldiers. Kyle made money off of this lie, how much is impossible to say but the jury said $1.3m in improper enrichment. To me that money is no different than if Chris Kyle had robbed a bank of $2m and then been killed. No one would argue that just because Chris Kyle was a decorated veteran who died tragically and left behind a wife and children that his estate should be allowed to keep the $2m he stole. The money the jury ascertained he earned based on libeling Jesse Ventura was never properly his, and thus never should have been the estate’s money–no different than money from a bank robbery. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/2 "2014-10-14T22:45:44Z")
“The Body” had the right to sue. He won. The claim about his statement was false and defamed him. $1.8 million of defamation, I don’t know how that was decided. He didn’t have to sue, but as I understand it Kyle refused to retract his statement and it was a serious accusation. One thing Jesse could have done was create a media campaign to disparage Kyle, and hopefully Kyle would retract his statement and apologize. If enough people condemned Kyle for his statement perhaps Jesse would have been satisfied even if Kyle never retracted his statement. But Kyle died. There was no longer the possibility of a retraction, Jesse had no way to totally clear his name, he was in his rights to sue. Kyle’s estate at least partially consisted of ill gotten gains, and his heirs had no reason to expect to keep them. I might think more of Jesse if he didn’t sue and used the media to clear his name, but I can’t think he was wrong in suing, and I don’t think much of his detractors. They didn’t stand up for Jesse when he was under an unfair attack. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/3 "2014-10-14T23:09:47Z")
Where is the part where JV suffered damages? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/4 "2014-10-14T23:27:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Where is the part where JV suffered damages? He was defamed. His reputation was harmed [see: Defamation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation). The judgment was a combination of $500k punitive damages and the jury’s assessment that $1.3m was earned by Kyle based on his defamation of Ventura. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/5 "2014-10-15T00:01:53Z")
One third of the books earnings were based on Kyle’s lie? That seems kinda hard to believe. The book sold on Kyle’s reputation as a sniper, I’m kind of sceptical that a third of its sales were from his description of a barfight. But other than the justification for the award, I don’t have any problem with the suit. JV obviously relies on his reputation as a Seal for part of his living, so even if I don’t think Kyle earned 2 million off his lie, I can see where it might have cost JV that much. ---
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/6 "2014-10-15T02:34:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > One third of the books earnings were based on Kyle’s lie? That seems kinda hard to believe. The book sold on Kyle’s reputation as a sniper, I’m kind of sceptical that a third of its sales were from his description of a barfight. > > But other than the justification for the award, I don’t have any problem with the suit. JV obviously relies on his reputation as a Seal for part of his living, so even if I don’t think Kyle earned 2 million off his lie, I can see where it might have cost JV that much. I think that the publicity added to the books appeal. However I doubt that the entire settlement was sourced off of the total sales. There was probably some punitive damages. JV is a politician and he needs his reputation. JV did nothing wrong and it seems the courts agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/7 "2014-10-15T02:37:08Z")
A lot of his claims as a sniper have never been verified. He just made a lot of claims but never produced any evidence to support it. And yet the movie is entirely based on his claims. It should be listed as fiction, though it will probably be “based on a true story.” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/8 "2014-10-15T05:28:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > He was defamed. His reputation was harmed [see: Defamation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation). > > The judgment was a combination of $500k punitive damages and the jury’s assessment that $1.3m was earned by Kyle based on his defamation of Ventura. I see no damage to JV from the information provided. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/9 "2014-10-15T05:40:38Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > I think that the publicity added to the books appeal. However I doubt that the entire settlement was sourced off of the total sales. There was probably some punitive damages. The OP gives a breakdown of how much was punitive (which I mangled in my post, they found that one-sixth of the profits were due to the lie, not one third). I guess I just think its weird that the penalty is decided on the profit to the defamer rather than damage to the defamed. I’d always thought it was the other way around. This is academic though, I don’t have a problem with the verdict, and the penalty doesn’t seem out of line, even if I don’t understand exactly how it was computed. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/10 "2014-10-15T06:33:58Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The OP gives a breakdown of how much was punitive (which I mangled in my post, they found that one-sixth of the profits were due to the lie, not one third). > > I guess I just think its weird that the penalty is decided on the profit to the defamer rather than damage to the defamed. I’d always thought it was the other way around. In general, damages are compensatory; they are intended to put the plaintiff in the position he would be in if the wrong had never been committed. Admittedly, in a defamation case, this is hard to quantify in monetary terms, but that is in principle the calculation that is made. But in some circumstances damages beyond compensatory damages are awarded. One of this is where the defendant has profitted from the wrong he has done. If the award of damages were less than the amount of his profit, he’d still be a net gainer from his wrong. This could be seen as unacceptable on public policy grounds, because it gives people a financial incentive to commit a wrong which will yield a proft exceeding what they have to pay in purely compensatory damages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/11 "2014-10-15T07:17:14Z")
I don’t know if this was a “presumed damages” case, but in defamation it is quite common that impugning someone’s honesty or ability to do their job allows the jury to set damages as they see fit. See Defamation per se. I agree with the OP entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/12 "2014-10-15T08:05:13Z")
I’ll bite: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > 1. Reaction to both the lawsuit and the verdict have almost universally condemned/bashed Ventura for his actions. So what aren’t you telling us? If this is true there has to be more to the story than what you’ve said or is in the wiki link. I don’t see how many people could be condemning Ventura, much less it being the almost universal reaction. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/13 "2014-10-15T13:38:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > 1. Reaction to both the lawsuit and the verdict have almost universally condemned/bashed Ventura for his actions. Reaction by whom? I don’t watch Fox News and I have never even heard of this lawsuit prior to this thread. (I have no problem with Ventura’s actions, but I am puzzled by the claim that there has been any “universal” reaction to them.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/14 "2014-10-15T13:56:22Z")
I haven’t heard a universal condemnation of Ventura, but there are a lot of people who will say you should never speak ill of the dead. Worse than that some of them seem to believe Ventura is defaming the deceased veteran even though Ventura is telling the truth and the dead guy was a liar. I don’t understand it, but it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/15 "2014-10-15T14:01:33Z")
I have only a passing familiarity with this case, but a couple of Facebook friends who are conservative, cheerlead-the-troops kind of folks have criticized Ventura for the suit. One post I saw was to the effect of “Ventura couldn’t stand up to this brave warrior hero, so he went after his widow!” Whether that’s a widespread view, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/16 "2014-10-15T14:17:21Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’ll bite:So what aren’t you telling us? If this is true there has to be more to the story than what you’ve said or is in the wiki link. I don’t see how many people could be condemning Ventura, much less it being the almost universal reaction. I think some people just think its crass to continue a lawsuit against a murder victim, regardless of the merits. I don’t agree, but I can see the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/17 "2014-10-15T14:18:31Z")
Jesse Ventura is a former professional wrestler, 911 Truther, and idiot, so it is hard to see how this would hurt his reputation. > [@](#): > > Two surveys by Public Policy Polling (PPP) largely show that Kyle’s book had no impact on Ventura’s reputation. The first one was dated June 6, 2011, before Chris Kyle’s book came out. The second survey is dated October 8, 2012, several months after the book was published. Among the many questions that PPP asked Minnesotans was “Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of Jesse Ventura?” > > In the first poll 29% said "Favorable, "58% said “Unfavorable,” and 13% said “Not sure.” The poll was subject to a margin of error of +/-2.9%. In the second poll 29% said "Favorable, "53% said “Unfavorable,” and 18% said “Not sure.” The poll was subject to a margin of error of +/-3.2%. There was no change in aggregate public opinion regarding Ventura’s favorable views between the time before Kyle’s book and several months afterwards. [Cite](http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/blog/david-schultz/last-hurrah-jesse-ventura). [QUOTE=tomndebb] Reaction by whom? [/quote] Military veterans, largely. > [@](#): > > I don’t watch Fox News and I have never even heard of this lawsuit prior to this thread. It isn’t FoxNews - try the Washington Post and CNN, those bastions of right-wing disinformation. > [@](#): > > But in taking money from the Kyle estate, Ventura is taking a pounding from many military supporters and veterans. The common refrain: Even if Kyle lied about Ventura, they say, the defamation case should have been dropped after Kyle was shot to death on a gun range in Texas in 2013, allegedly by a Marine veteran he was helping through post-traumatic stress. > > Even Anderson Cooper, CNN’s relatively unflappable newsman, weighed in viscerally Tuesday night. His response: “I cannot believe that Jesse Ventura successfully sued the widow of fallen Navy SEAL. Has he no shame?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/18 "2014-10-15T14:37:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Reaction by whom? This all went down this past summer so I remember it faily clearly. It was in the news here since Ventura is from these parts and was governor. I remember the negative reaction and it seemed to come from your usual torch and pitchfork mob filling up facebook comment sections. “Ventura is suing a military widow! How low can you go?!” Nobody seemed interested in the facts but were rather enjoying the recreational outrage pile-on. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/19 "2014-10-15T16:30:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Jesse Ventura is a former professional wrestler, 911 Truther, and idiot, so it is hard to see how this would hurt his reputation. Oh yeah, [_Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_Theory_with_Jesse_Ventura), how could I have forgotten that gem of television broadcasting. Yeah, when you make your living being that much of a professional idiot it does make it kind of hard to take claims of having your reputation damaged seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346/20 "2014-10-15T17:00:38Z")
Was it really that clear cut or is that just your opinion? At the time Kyle’s side had plenty of witnesses at the trial that was various parts of the confrontation. Ventura had others. Sure the judgement was for Ventura but the burden of proof is much lower in a civil trial. Add to that Ventura is a liar, a kook and a friend of Alex Jones which means I wouldn’t believe him if he said water was wet. The vocal SEAL community all seemed to come down on Kyle’s side too. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesse-ventura-was-right-to-sue-the-estate-of-chris-kyle/701346.md?page=2)