# Jesus a terrorist?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922 "2002-04-05T04:05:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/41 "2002-04-05T21:38:23Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by furt \*
> \*\*
>
> This is where Christians would disagree. He _has_ revealed himself to everyone.\*\*
I’m afraid I can’t accept this. This is because God has not revealed himself to me. This doctrine essentially says “everyone who is not Christian is a liar or is insane”. I’m afraid I can’t accept that any religion has the right to say unequivocally that all nonbelievers are willingly lying about Christianity being right. For one thing, it makes this debate useless.
You are free to believe otherwise. However, it seems to be circular reasoning. The only people who could debunk this claim are non-Christians. However, all non-Christians are lying. Therefore, they are lying when they say it is not true. It is therefore not possible to debunk this.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Now you can say that God has not revealed himself sufficiently, that the texts aren’t clear enough, whatever. But all that is doing is setting up a standard of your own that God has to meet. It’s essentially telling the cops that the law was too vague. Sorry, but ignorance is no defense.
\*\*
Actually, I would say that ignorance of the law is very much a defense if the law is not accessible.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*It’s not about you. Your will is not the center of the universe.
\*\*
No, I never said that it was, nor that I wanted it to be. However, I would expect a God that is both perfectly loving and perfectly just to have a system of judgement that is sensical.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*If you insist that that isn’t fair, that it’s rigged, and that you don’t accept any God who demands that you meet his standards and not vice versa, God will, with regret, give you what you want. \*\*
Are you saying that I want to go to Hell? I don’t. I wanted very much, as a Christian, to have faith. I simply thought it was nonsensical. Even as a Christian, I had no direct or indirect evidence that God existed, let alone according to Biblical teachings. So I asked myself: ‘what’s more likely? God is out there, but refuses to answer my prayers (though the Bible says he answers those of others), he demands that I believe or go to Hell, yet gives me no reason to, and all of this while being perfectly loving and perfectly just; or that, simply, the Bible and Christianity are not accurate.’ Sorry, I made my choice.
I’m afraid I can’t accept Christianity as not being a religion of fear based on an argument that requires (a) myself, and all other people who are not Christian, to be liars or not capable of making a reasonable decision, that (b) actively contradicts my experience as a former Christian, and that © requires you to be a Christian in order for it to make sense.
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### Author:  [@Praesumptio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Praesumptio)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/42 "2002-04-05T23:04:26Z")
Ok then, since this topic seems to have taken a different course than I had expected… how about this:
God is all knowing, right? So why would god create this situation of “No proof that I exist, but you better believe it or your gonna spend eternity surfing the sea of fire.”
I had it explained to me as: God did not intend for things to be like this, but that it was because of Adam and Eve’s sins that the world is how it is… and it is because of Lucifer that there is a hell…
So why would an all knowing god do this? Perhaps god isnt all knowing, or all powerful. Are we putting limitations on god now? Anything in the Bible on this?
I havent spent as much time researching this as many of you have, so perhaps someone can explain?
BTW: thanks for the Jesus = non terrorist explanations… Although I am not totally sold, I do see how a few details dont fit in classifying Jesus as a terrorist…
However, I still see it as… Jesus is the son of god (rather he said it or not), and he taught that people who did not follow him would go to hell (which, I dont know, as I’ve seen it explained in the Bible, there doesnt seem to be anything more threatening). That is the threat of painful consequence to all of humanity that I associate with terrorism…
"
So, did Jesus:
–utilize violence or the threat of violence to inculcate fear?
–try to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of His goals?
Answers:
No.
No.
"
Threat of violence: You’ll be tortured in a lake of fire for all eternity if you dont believe me. Sounds violent to me (I’m scared of going to hell) – yes.
Coerce or intimidate gorvernments or societies in pursuit of his goals: His goal? To make people believe him and what he taught. Believe it or your goin to hell… If David Blaine came up to me (me being an uneducated member of the masses), and I had no idea who he was… then he proceded to levitate (or, say, turn water into wine) and told me that if I did not follow him I would burn in a lake of fire… I’d feel threatened, and he could quite easily convince me that his word was gospel (no pun intended?) – yes.
Correct me if I am wrong.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/43 "2002-04-06T00:11:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by fluiddruid \*
> \*\*
> This doctrine essentially says “everyone who is not Christian is a liar or is insane.” I’m afraid I can’t accept that any religion has the right to say unequivocally that all nonbelievers are willingly lying about Christianity being right.
> \*\*
Not lying, just wrong. Certainly not consciously lying. Just unwilling to face what Christians believe are “the facts.” You, of course may dispute that those are indeed the facts.
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> Actually, I would say that ignorance of the law is very much a defense if the law is not accessible.
> \*\*
Again, because you are saying that your definition of accessible is what counts. Some US laws are obscure, written down only in huge law books, and unknown to 99.9% of the population. They are nevertheless binding on someone who speaks no English and just arrived here on vacation from Mars. The person can be tried and punished regardless of the fact that he did not know the law, and regardless of his demands that “it isn’t fair.” His opinion on the matter of fairness, or on the accessibility of the law books, are simply not relevant.
Will he, in fact be punished? Probably not, because the judge has some discretion in these matters. Christians believe that they are guilty (remember the prayers about “any other sins I may have committed”), and are throwing themselves on the mercy of the court.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you saying that I want to go to Hell? I don’t.
No. I am saying that you are expecting God to meet your standards and not vice versa. That is neither unusual or surprising; we are taught constantly to think for ourselves, to make our own choices, to exercise our free will. Saying otherwise is entirely counterintuitive in this day and age.
Here…
> [@](#):
>
> I’m afraid I can’t accept this. This is because God has not revealed himself to me.
>
> I’m afraid I can’t accept that any religion
>
> …it seems to be circular reasoning…
>
> I would expect a God that is both perfectly loving and perfectly just to…
>
> I simply thought it was nonsensical.
>
> I had no direct or indirect evidence
>
> So I asked myself…
>
> …gives me no reason to…
>
> I’m afraid I can’t accept Christianity…
>
> I made my choice.
Do you see what I’m getting at? In the Christian worldview, none of these things matter. What you accept is irrelvant. Your opinion on whether circular logic is valid does not count. What you expect of God is meaningless. Your definitions of “love” and “justice” carry no wieght. You are not qualified to define “sense and nonsense.” Your rules of evidence are invalid.
All of these things are the province of God. He makes the rules and enforces them. Your opinion of his fitness as Judge, Jury and Executioner simply does not matter.
I hope this doesn’t come off as harsh; I’m not trying to be rude. But what I’m saying is utterly against the grain of the way you are used to thinking.
In the end Christians are either right or wrong, and there really is nothing that humans call “proof” until then. It’s not a provable thing. Enter “Faith.”
I’ll give a metaphor to further complicate things. The Universe is a complex math problem written on paper found by the side of the road by two people.
It says “Calculate …(insert complicated math formula here) … Given: A=14.6, and X\>Y.” They work on the math problem for hours, with no success. The first guy will conclude that the problem is insoluble if you accept the “givens.” Or it’s a joke, or a misprint, or whatever. There is no answer to the formula, there is no meaning to the paper. After several hours of trying, you can hardly blame the guy for quitting. But the other guy, for whatever reason, keeps working on the problem. He has not abandoned his reason (he’s working on the math), but he accepts the validity of the problem on faith. Who is right? We may never know.
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### Author:  [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/44 "2002-04-06T01:21:47Z")
**God is out there, but refuses to answer my prayers (though the Bible says he answers those of others),**
Is it that you feel they are not answered, or is it that you don’t get the answer you want or expect?
\*\*God is all knowing, right? So why would god create this situation of “No proof that I exist, but you better believe it or your gonna spend eternity surfing the sea of fire.” \*\*
What would qualify as proof for you? The reason I ask, is that I see proof that God does exist. If you are trying to build your faith around “doctrines” and “theology”, you will certainly run into all kinds of contradictions and questions that are unanswerable. The debate may be interesting. But, my ideas about faith are based on my personal feelings. It actually feels better than right and this, I think, is the purpose of faith. To me…faith is the choice that feels right. So…what I am saying is that while studying theology or the bible may increase your knowledge, it may also make you question. I do not view questions as “lack of faith”. I see them as “unsettled issues”. Faith is a feeling, not a fact. Also…when trying to sort out what you believe it can be distracting to survey the beliefs of others.
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/45 "2002-04-06T02:14:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by furt \*
> \*\*
>
> Not lying, just wrong. Certainly not consciously lying. Just unwilling to face what Christians believe are “the facts.” You, of course may dispute that those are indeed the facts.\*\*
But if I say that have no evidence of these “facts” – or just one, the existence of the Christian God – then I must be lying according to what you said (that I know that God exists). Unless I do not “consciously” know. If I unconsciously know, I have to ask, why isn’t God direct when it’s such a crucial piece of information and, indeed, one that bears the weight of my immortal soul?
I certainly faced these ‘facts’ as a Christian. Yet I left. Why? Leaving your faith is an enormously difficult thing to do, especially with conservatively religious parents. Why would I do all of this just to damn myself while knowing that indeed I was wrong?
Either I knew something or I didn’t. Either I know or I don’t know. If I know the Christian God exists, I am now lying. If I don’t know, then this negates what you previously argued.
> [@](#):
>
> **Again, because you are saying that your definition of accessible is what counts. Some US laws are obscure, written down only in huge law books, and unknown to 99.9% of the population. They are nevertheless binding on someone who speaks no English and just arrived here on vacation from Mars. The person can be tried and punished regardless of the fact that he did not know the law, and regardless of his demands that “it isn’t fair.” His opinion on the matter of fairness, or on the accessibility of the law books, are simply not relevant.**
If it were an unobvious, archaic, obscure law, I believe he would have a legitimate complaint. Yet we’re not talking about a fine here. We’re talking about _eternal damnation_. We’re also talking about a (supposedly) perfect law – human law obviously does not qualify. Why would God knowingly obscure vital information from some, but not from others? How can God be just, but also show rampant favoritism?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Will he, in fact be punished? Probably not, because the judge has some discretion in these matters. Christians believe that they are guilty (remember the prayers about “any other sins I may have committed”), and are throwing themselves on the mercy of the court.
\*\*
I protest that this does not make sense. The Judgement has not yet occurred. How are they throwing themselves on the mercy of the court without being tried?
Additionally, I am sure that I would throw myself on the mercy of the court – so to speak – if I knew that the court existed at all! I don’t. Should I find out differently when I die, I can’t imagine I’ll go “Gee, I knew it all along! Well, I guess it’s straight to Hell for me!” Instead I will say something along the lines of “Holy frijoles! I’m not in Tir-nan-Og after all!”
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*No. I am saying that you are expecting God to meet your standards and not vice versa. That is neither unusual or surprising; we are taught constantly to think for ourselves, to make our own choices, to exercise our free will. Saying otherwise is entirely counterintuitive in this day and age.
\*\*
If I have free will and the Christian God created me, then he created me to have free will. Why create free will only to say “never use this”?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Do you see what I’m getting at? In the Christian worldview, none of these things matter. What you accept is irrelvant. Your opinion on whether circular logic is valid does not count. What you expect of God is meaningless. Your definitions of “love” and “justice” carry no wieght. You are not qualified to define “sense and nonsense.” Your rules of evidence are invalid.
\*\*
This is exactly what I am getting at! Christianity does not make logical sense. The only way to understand it is to believe it without question. Yet we were given free will, and minds, and emotions. Are all of these things not to be allowed? How are we supposed to know that God exists, or that one religion is right and other is wrong, if all of our senses and our judgement is terminally flawed?
I simply cannot accept any religion that says “This does not make logical sense. What you think does not matter. If it is circular logic, it does not matter. If you think it is unethical, it doesn’t matter. You simply have to believe or you fry.” It turns God into far from the idea of loving or just.
Frankly, if you want to follow a religion that you neither understand nor can rationally support with logic, that’s your prerogative. I simply don’t see why you would do so.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*All of these things are the province of God. He makes the rules and enforces them. Your opinion of his fitness as Judge, Jury and Executioner simply does not matter.
\*\*
Yet, God is supposed to be a loving Father. Does a loving father say to his child, “I’m not going to explain this to you. If you think this rule does not make sense, I don’t care. If you think it’s not logical, I don’t care. You will do it, or I will throw you out of my house forever and make you suffer forever.” Indeed, the God of the Bible is worse – he does not even SAY that – people are simply supposed to deduce what he said!
No. A loving parent who wants their child to have free will does not withhold information that is vital to them. A loving parent cares how their child feels and what they think.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*I hope this doesn’t come off as harsh; I’m not trying to be rude. But what I’m saying is utterly against the grain of the way you are used to thinking.
\*\*
No, I’m afraid not. I was raised with all of these arguments. After leaving Christianity, I have heard them all many times. In fact I have spent a lot of my time online during the last two years having extensive conversations with Christian street preachers and other devout members of the faith. I am not unaccustomed to your words in the slightest.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*In the end Christians are either right or wrong, and there really is nothing that humans call “proof” until then. It’s not a provable thing. Enter “Faith.”
\*\*
But I thought you said that I knew God existed? How do I know this, if this requires faith?
I agree with you that religion is a matter of faith. I simply don’t see why God would put us in a world filled with so many different religious perspective and philosophical ideas, with all kinds of different things to explore and learn about, but yet say: “Believe this one religion right before you die, or I will throw you into a lake of fire for eternity.” I simply don’t think that humans are so bad that they could ever possibly earn even a finite Hell. I feel that I must have less love than God, but yet I can’t think of any person who I love so little as to torture them unendingly.
But back to the OP: Do you not believe that there is an element of fear in Christianity? That was, of course, the theme of this thread before we hijacked it.
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### Author:  [@Praesumptio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Praesumptio)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/46 "2002-04-06T02:22:50Z")
I cant touch god, I cant see god, I cant hear god or taste god or smell god. To me, it does not seem likely that god created earth and man and all these rules by which we live… it does, however, seem reasonable and logical that man would create god, in man’s search for somthing higher, some meaning, or some explanation of everything. Sure, how could this wonderful world exist without some higher being to create it? Right? Well then who created god? Thats a thinker… hmm… I’m going to have to go with answer choice b.) “man” …
And the Bible, however holy and life changing it is for some people, is simply a book. It was written by man, not by god. I dont see this as proof.
To me, the bible makes about as much sense as Star Wars… sure its entertaining, the force, a light side and a dark side… good fighting evil… but I’m not going to believe its true. Thats just silly. Of all the religions with all the different gods, you’d think people might question their faith a little more. Most religions have no consequences if you choose not to follow them. Wonder why there are so many Christians? I believe it is because the idea of not being a Christian scares some people… they are **TERRORIZED** into believing it… other religions give you a bit more of a choice… follow us if you like, if you dont, leave us alone and no hard feelings… but not with Christianity… follow us if you like… if you dont, your going to hell to burn for all eternity.
Oh, and btw… if you are interested in becoming a member of the Jedi cult… er, religion… visit these sites:
[http://www.millsonthe.net/jedireligion/](http://www.millsonthe.net/jedireligion/)
[http://www.webmajestic.com/userpages/Jedi.html](http://www.webmajestic.com/userpages/Jedi.html)
[http://www.geocities.com/jediknightism/world\_jediism.html](http://www.geocities.com/jediknightism/world_jediism.html)
If Christianity doesnt work for you… all that burning in hell and spreading the word of god… become a Jedi! You might get to play with light sabres…
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### Author:  [@Praesumptio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Praesumptio)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/47 "2002-04-06T02:35:16Z")
_Ahem_ yes, back to the topic…
I do not believe that fear is a **factor** in Christianity, I believe that it is a driving motivator for people to become Christian. Remember a few posts back… what have you got to lose if your wrong about being Christian? Nothing… what have you got to lose if your not Christian and wrong? Your entire afterlife, being tortured in a lake of fire. Would there be many Christians if not being Christian didnt have such a bad consequence? Hah. Dont kid yourself.
So, in answer, yes, I think Christians are driven by fear. Some people may actually buy into it. If it helps make you happy with yourself, by all means be a Christian! But if your doing it because you dont want to go to hell… well, welcome to the majority. (IMO)
Btw… where I said “burning in hell and spreading the word of god…”
I meant to say OR, not and.
Thats the kind of thing I feel I might get flamed or corrected for here.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/48 "2002-04-06T02:48:36Z")
I agree, there’s not much more point. I would only suggest to you that the fact that you find yourself having frequently having conversations with street preachers, making long posts on the internet, and so on, indicates that you are in fact, still searching.
Why do you feel the need to tell everyone you don’t believe. It’s like the characters in Graham Greene novels: “I hate you, God, because you don’t exist.”
It’s not logical. Neither is Love. Logic does not answer all the questions of life, and using only logic to find the meaning of the universe is like using only one color to paint a picture.
As far as the fear factor, yes it’s there. But its something that non-Christians think and talk about way more than Christians. I went to a Bible college some would call fundamentalist, and never once heard an honest-to-god fire and brimstone sermon. It was always focused on the positive rather than the negative.
Certainly if you’re talking about Jesus, it’s a very minor part of his message. How many pages are in the gospels? How many times does he mention hell? I think you’re going to have a hard time making the case that this was a guy whose primary intention was to terrify people.
From a logical (there’s that word again) standpoint, I don’t see how you can have a heaven without a hell, however that is defined. One implies the existence of the other. You cannot have presence without the existence of absence.
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### Author:  [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/49 "2002-04-06T02:52:37Z")
I believe what I believe because it feels right for me. Not because I don’t want something. My faith is based on what I want, not what I want to avoid. My faith improves the quality of my participation in life. It is my connection to goodness, understanding, forgiveness, and completeness.
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### Author:  [@Praesumptio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Praesumptio)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/50 "2002-04-06T03:33:32Z")
Everyone is still searching. I dont believe that anyone is REALLY an athiest… when it gets right down to it, I think most rational people who claim to be athiest are really agnostic. Now, true, there are quite a few genuine athiests, I’ll not deny that, but I dont think there are as many as some would have me believe. While god’s existance certainly cant be proven, his absence cant be proven either. Now certainly it seems more logical that god does not exist, and that he is merely a creation of man, but logical answers are not always the right ones. So, am I still searching? Yes, all the time. Do I buy it so far? Not at all.
But this is entirely besides the point (or the intended point) of the post… I merely wanted to know if Jesus could be considered to be a terrorist, and if there were any backing in the Bible of him being one or not being one.
Some nice help and insight here (though not as much as I had expected…)
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### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/51 "2002-04-06T05:41:23Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Praesumptio \*
> \*\*Correct me if I am wrong. \*\*
You are wrong. Jesus never said, “Believe in Me or you will spend all eternity burning in a lake of fire.” The passage referring to sinners spending all eternity burning in a lake of fire occurs ONLY in the Book of Revelation, it was written years later by someone named John, and it wasn’t preached by Jesus at all. He didn’t even mention it.
Here is a [link](http://bible.gospelcom.net) to the Bible Gateway. Choose your translation. I challenge you to show me where Jesus ever threatened any kind of violence against people who didn’t believe in Him.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*I merely wanted to know if Jesus could be considered to be a terrorist, and if there were any backing in the Bible of him being one or not being one. \*\*
No, Jesus could not be considered a terrorist.
No, there is absolutely no support in the Bible of Him being a terrorist.
Yes, there is support in the Bible of Him not being a terrorist. Lots of it.
> [@](#):
>
> Matthew 12
> 19He will not quarrel or cry out;
> no one will hear his voice in the streets.
> 20A bruised reed he will not break,
> and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
> till he leads justice to victory.
> 21In his name the nations will put their hope."[1]
> [@](#):
>
> Matthew 22
> 15Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
> 18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?”
> 21"Caesar’s," they replied.
> Then he said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
> [@](#):
>
> Matthew 5
> 5Blessed are the meek,
> for they will inherit the earth.
> [@](#):
>
> Matthew 15
> 12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
> 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
> 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Please tell me how someone who preaches, “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth,” who tells people to pay their taxes, who says of those who don’t believe in Him, “Let them alone, they’re just blind”, and of whom it is said, “He will not quarrel, and a bruised reed will he not break”, is a terrorist.
You are not getting as much “help and insight” as you expected in your debate over whether Jesus was a terrorist because it doesn’t sound to us like a serious debate. It’s an EXTREMELY labored parallel, and one that, in our opinion, simply doesn’t fly. Jesus may have preached “be different from the people around you”, but that’s a far cry from preaching “violent rebellion”. And He certainly never threatened people with violence if they refused to heed His message.
Hence our relative distance from your debate.
You sound like you have some serious issues with Christianity. What is it that you want from us, exactly?
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### Author:  [@Praesumptio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Praesumptio)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/52 "2002-04-06T06:49:06Z")
Nothing more.
Thank you… I’ll leave this topic.
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### Author:  [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/53 "2002-04-06T13:53:32Z")
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. The clear link has been made to Zechariah 9:9
> [@](#):
>
> Lo, your king comes to you;
> triumphant and victorious is he,
> humble and riding on a donkey,
> on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
The rest of the book is rather militant, for example 9:13
> [@](#):
>
> I will arouse your sons, O Zion,
> against your sons, O Greece,
> and wield you like a warrior’s sword.
I’ll quote a bit from Marvin Harris’ book Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches.
> [@](#):
>
> By choosing to invade Jerusalem just before the beginning of Passover, they assured themselves the protection of thousands of holiday pilgrims…Zealot-bandits, peasants, laborers, beggars and other potentially volatile groups were all streaming into the city at the same time. During the day Jesus went nowhere unless surrounded by tumultuous and ecstatic crowds…
>
> Jesus and his disciples did nothing that would have distinguished them from the members of an incipient military-messianic movement. They even provoked at least one violent confrontation…Jesus himself used a whip during this incident…
>
> Just before being taken into custody, Jesus said, “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” This prompted the disciples to show him two swords - indicatingthat at least two of them were not only habitually armed but had kept their swords concealed under their clothes…like dagger men
Harris goes on to discuss disciples’ names.
Simon - “the Zealot”
James & John - Boanerges, translated as “Sons of Thunder” or “the fierce, wrathful ones”
Judas - “Iscariot”
> [@](#):
>
> There is an unncanny resemblance between Iscariot and _sicarii_, the word used by Josephus to identify the knife-wielding, homicidal dagger men.
When Jesus was crucified, next to him were two _lestai_
> [@](#):
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> precisely the same term that Josephus used when he wanted to refer to the zealot-bandits
From Harris’ perspective, it is clear that Jesus ran with a rough crowd. Whether they would be considered terrorists or freedom-fighters may have depended on whether you were a Roman or a Palestinian.
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/54 "2002-04-06T19:15:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by furt \*
> \*\*I agree, there’s not much more point. I would only suggest to you that the fact that you find yourself having frequently having conversations with street preachers, making long posts on the internet, and so on, indicates that you are in fact, still searching
\*\*
I’m familiar with this accusation. However I don’t think that this is true. I became interested in street preaching for different reasons which I can go into if you are interested (meeting Brother Jed, probably the most famous street preacher, in college, and having interest in the religious dialogues that came about through street preaching).
I am still searching. That I will not deny. However, I cannot say that I am still searching to become a Christian. Why, then, would I study many other religions? If talking to street preachers means I want to become Christian, what does it mean when I study neo-Paganism, Buddhism, Islam, and, most recently, begin attending a Unitarian church?
I submit that I simply have a strong interest in religion. I am fascinated by religious and spiritual topics. This does not imply that your argument is correct and that I ‘know’ that the Christian God exists. I don’t. I certainly believe in a higher power. Not quite the same thing, that!
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Why do you feel the need to tell everyone you don’t believe. It’s like the characters in Graham Greene novels: “I hate you, God, because you don’t exist.”
\*\*
I don’t feel that need. I brought up my beliefs because I felt that they disproved your argument, which in turn was a response to one of my posts. I post on religious topics quite a bit, and I hardly ever delve into my personal beliefs. I only do so when people make arguments that I feel are fallacious like “everyone knows my religion is true” and “people who are not Christian are just in denial”. These require, I believe, a non-believer to step up and address them. I am perfectly happy to be that individual.
I also do not hate God. I simply believe that the Christian view of God is self-contradictory.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*It’s not logical. Neither is Love. Logic does not answer all the questions of life, and using only logic to find the meaning of the universe is like using only one color to paint a picture.
\*\*
There is a difference between understanding emotions and actively believing in things that do not make sense and saying that logic has no value in weighing spiritual matters. If I were the latter, I would just as easily have stayed a Christian or became a Scientologist.
I should note that not all of my argument is based on logic. One of my strongest motivations to avoid Christianity is simply because I have a strong feeling of what love is and I don’t think Christianity, as it is currently practiced, exhibits much love.
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> As far as the fear factor, yes it’s there. But its something that non-Christians think and talk about way more than Christians.\*\*
Of course. If you are in a faith that says you are OK unless you leave, you do not start being afraid until you start to think about leaving. This is where the fear factor kicks in.
Why else would people respond “but aren’t you afraid of Hell” when I left Christianity rather than “why would you want to leave such a rewarding spiritual life”?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*I went to a Bible college some would call fundamentalist, and never once heard an honest-to-god fire and brimstone sermon. It was always focused on the positive rather than the negative.
\*\*
This is all well and good for believers. Believers do not experience much fear when in isolated societies (like Biblical colleges) where you do not have much contact with non-Christians.
In any case, the fear aspect is not necessary except for non-believers. Why would you be afraid if you are completely confident that you are on the side that is going to be in Heaven rather than in Hell?
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>
> **Certainly if you’re talking about Jesus, it’s a very minor part of his message. How many pages are in the gospels? How many times does he mention hell?**
The point is not how many times Jesus mentions Hell. The point is that if Hell exists it, by its very nature as a horrible and cruel punishment, demands attention. Surely there are few pages written in modern law about the death penalty. That does not mean that it is not something that incites fear and that is cruel.
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> \*\*I think you’re going to have a hard time making the case that this was a guy whose primary intention was to terrify people.
\*\*
If you have been reading my posts, you would know that is not the case that I intended to make, nor one that I have attempted.
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> \*\*From a logical (there’s that word again) standpoint, I don’t see how you can have a heaven without a hell, however that is defined. One implies the existence of the other. You cannot have presence without the existence of absence. \*\*
Why? Support this with logic or evidence. Also, please define why you believe that it is necessary for a Heaven to exist. I never said that I believed that, either.
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/55 "2002-04-06T19:26:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \*
> \*\*
> You are wrong. Jesus never said, “Believe in Me or you will spend all eternity burning in a lake of fire.” The passage referring to sinners spending all eternity burning in a lake of fire occurs ONLY in the Book of Revelation, it was written years later by someone named John, and it wasn’t preached by Jesus at all. He didn’t even mention it. \*\*
That is not correct. While the requirement of faith for salvation being central came about later (with Protestantism), Jesus most certainly did mention Hell and judgement (though not always as a lake of fire – often the comparison was made to the Greek Hades, which is more a dark, underground place).
From Matthew 11:
> [@](#):
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> 20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[4] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."
I also brought up the above quote which was indeed mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16:
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> 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Even in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus mentioned Hell (Matthew 5: 21-22):
> [@](#):
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> 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[1] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[2] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[3] ’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
In Matthew 3:12, John the Baptist also describes sinners as burning chaff in an ‘unquenchable fire’. The fire / plant analogy is used many times in the Gospels (such as Matthew 7:19 and Matthew 13:40).
In Matthew 25, Jesus is specific about Hell:
> [@](#):
>
> 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
So no, it’s not fair to say that most Scriptural references come from Revelation. Revelation does have quite a few, but Jesus certainly never said that there was no Hell. Quite the contrary – if the Gospels are accurate, Jesus said explicitly what Hell was and that sinners would go there.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/56 "2002-04-06T19:46:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by fluiddruid \*
> I submit that I simply have a strong interest in religion
And I submit that that interest has some personal investment. That is all I meant.
> [@](#):
>
> … I felt that they disproved your argument, which in turn was a response to one of my posts … I only do so when people make arguments that I feel are fallacious like “everyone knows my religion is true” and “people who are not Christian are just in denial”.
**I** have not made very arguments. I explained what the Christian worldview entails because I felt you did not fully understand it. Once you made it clear you had a working familiarity, I stopped.
> [@](#):
>
> There is a difference between understanding emotions and actively believing in things that do not make sense and saying that logic has no value in weighing spiritual matters.
Which is probably why I never said it.
> [@](#):
>
> Of course. If you are in a faith that says you are OK unless you leave, you do not start being afraid until you start to think about leaving. … Believers do not experience much fear when in isolated societies (like Biblical colleges) where you do not have much contact with non-Christians.
I wasn’t always in. I didn’t join for fear. I don’t stay for fear. Most Protestants believe that salvation, if genuine, can not be lost.
I do not live in an isolated society. Most of my freinds are functional agnostics. I am in a MA program where my beliefs make me quite the oddball.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, please define why you believe that it is necessary for a Heaven to exist.
Didn’t say that, either.
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### Author:  [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-a-terrorist/101922/57 "2002-04-06T21:38:26Z")
Furt, I think this discussion has likely gotten too heated. As you’ve not brought anything that requires a response in your post, I think now would be a good thing to break things off. If you wish to continue to discuss this, I would be happy to do so in a new thread, or you may contact me personally.
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